Terry Pearce and Finding the Deeper Objectives in Gamification | Episode 329

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Terry has been a consultant in learning and development for over twenty years and specializes in creating and facilitating games-based and gamified learning experiences. He’s the founder of Untold Play, via which he works with clients of all kinds to help make their learning experiences as gameful as possible. He’s the creator of the Transform Deck, a games-based tool to inspire learning designers and creators to make their learning experiences more activity-led and learner-focused: the deck is being used to do just that in more than 20 countries worldwide. His current focus is his framework, the Six Levers of Games-based Learning, a tool to help learning designers and creators take inspiration from what works in games and apply it to their learning experiences. He writes and speaks regularly on games-based learning and gamification in as many places as possible, including for Bookboon, the world’s largest corporate library provider, and Spiel Digital and the Playful Creative Summit.

 

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Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Rob:
Hey, engagers, and welcome back to another episode of the Professor Game podcast. We have Terry with us today. But Terry, we need to know, are you prepared to engage?

Terry:
Absolutely, Rob.

Rob:
Let’s do this. We have Terry Pierce with us, and he has been a consultant in learning and development for over 20 years, and he specializes in creating and facilitating games based and gamified learning experiences. He’s the founder of Untold Play, by which he works with clients of all kinds to help make their learning experiences as gameful as possible. He’s also the creator of the Transform Deck, which is a games based tool to inspire learning designers and creators to make their learning experiences more activity led and learner focused. It’s being used to do just that in more than 20 countries worldwide.

Rob:
His current focus on his framework, the six levers of game based learning, is a tool to help learning designers and creators to take inspiration from what works in games and apply it to their learning experiences. He writes and speaks regularly on games based learning and gamification in as many places as he can, including Book Boon, the world’s largest corporate library provider, and a spiel digital and the playful creative summit. We actually met also in the game based learning alliance, and I’m sure there’s many more to come, Terry, but is there anything that we’re missing that we should mention before we get into the questions?

Terry:
No, I don’t think so. I mean, it sounds great coming from you. I think I need you to introduce me every time I turn up to.

Rob:
Amazing. Amazing. So, Terry, what does a regular day with you look like? It seems you’re very busy with different things, so we want to get a feel of what that looks like.

Terry:
Yeah, sure. I mean, I’ll do my best because I don’t think there is, for me, a regular day. I very much kind of like to go with the flow, a little bit of what’s working for me at the time, but I mean, the one thing that probably would be in common is starting early. I think I definitely do my most creative work in the morning, so I’m usually at my desk pretty early. And if I’ve got to do some writing, if that’s the project that I’m working on, or some design and coming up with some creative ideas, perhaps to meet a brief requirement, then that’s what I’ll be doing in the morning.

Terry:
And then if there’s something that’s a little bit more process driven. So if I’ve got a basic design, but now I’ve just got to fill in the fields on some cards or go through and execute on a plan that I’ve actually come up with, then that’ll be more of an afternoon thing, so I’ll try and slot that in there. I guess the other thing that I really like to do in the afternoon that’s kind of really works for me and my rhythms is collaboration. So if I’m trying to put in meetings with other professionals, game space professionals, then the afternoon I find I can really do that. And then that leaves my precious morning time for me to really get creative and throw ideas about and come up.

Rob:
With stuff amazing for going with the flow. It seems to be quite, I don’t want to say like super structured or formal, but it does sound like you do have some process and some stuff figured out already as to how you expect your days to go, which is great. I’m not saying anything against that. I love it. So actually, let’s dive into one of our favorite moments, which is the fail or first attempt in learning.

Rob:
Can you talk to us about one of those times doing what you do in game based learning gamification? Things just didn’t go your way and we want to be there with you. We want to take the lessons. We want to have the full deal.

Terry:
Sure. Yeah. I mean, one that comes to mind in particular is I did a 24 hours game design marathon. Well, I mean, I decided it was going to be a game design marathon. It was a marathon anyway, kind of one of these things where you sign up and everyone’s trying to do something really that would be a good achievement within 24 hours.

Terry:
And I took on designing a learning game, which is quite a lot to do in 24 hours, but I wanted to do it as a kind of experience, something to see how that kind of pressure pushed me on and what kind of things happened. And I think I actually got really, really kind of quite well into creating a game based around motivation in the workplace and helping people who might be playing it understand how to motivate their teams and their people. But it was quite time pressured. And I think what I didn’t really leave time for before the play test at the very end of the 24 hours was thinking about the rules and the teach and the experience of learning how to play the game for the players. And so what seemed to me not that complex a game, because I’d been through the whole process of putting it together and thinking about all of the different systems that are involved in it, suddenly, as soon as I was actually in the middle of starting the play test by explaining to them how to play.

Terry:
I realized it was just too much, just kind of eyes starting to glaze over, a little bit, bit of confusion. And this was a little bit while ago and even back then, that’s not. And I wouldn’t really have done things that way. Normally, I would have spent more time thinking about the player journey, but I think it really brought home to me just how important it was to think about the fact that the kind of rules or instructions or teach might be kind of last for you, but it’s first for someone who’s coming to your game or your experience. So I think that really drove home for me just how important it is to think of things in terms of their journey, and also try to use as many different ways as possible to think about what’s the best way for them to take on the how to.

Terry:
So things like just in time instructions rather than everything up front, or things like player aids or prompts that are in the right place at the right time and trying to make things visual, things like that.

Rob:
It’s one of those things that I can feel you there and that simplifying the way that you do the onboarding or giving the instructions. And it’s something I usually lead by saying in workshops and so on. But it’s so easy to forget, like, no matter how many times you’ve seen it or you’ve done it. Right. It’s also easy to forget how simple it is to sit down and play a video game.

Rob:
Board games are a little bit of a special category there, right? Because you have the instructions and so on, and even like that, people go to YouTube videos and do it faster. Right. But I don’t know. There is a tendency for us to overcomplicate and try to upfront everything.

Rob:
I’m not sure where that comes from. Now you’re saying it, my mind is racing around. Why do we end up going in that direction, really, even when we know that’s probably not the best place to get started? But anyways, thanks for those lessons. That was amazing, Terry.

Rob:
So let’s actually. How about we turn that around and think of a time when things actually went great? Like again on the first or the nth, attempt after iteration, whatever that looks like we want to be there and maybe take away some of those success factors, if we can call them that way.

Terry:
Yeah, sure. So I think actually creating the transform deck was, in a way, me solving a challenge with games based learning and certainly something that I’m really pleased with how it went. So I think it came out of a desire for me to share my experience in designing playful, activity based, experiential learning, and all the techniques that I’d used over the years to design sessions that were really. Or experiences that were really engaging and got learners involved. And I’ve done this in various ways with kind of workshops and other things that are designed to try and pass on some of those ideas and abilities, and also writing about it, coaching people on it.

Terry:
But I think I wanted something that was a little bit more of something people could use as and when they needed it, a tool. And I don’t think I really expressed that need in my own mind initially. But what I was starting to do was play around with a lot of the different ways that I’d turned learning content into different kinds of activity or games or playful experiences over the years, and just try and put some kind of structure on it, try and categorize things, different ways that I’d approached it. And as I started to do this, because I was leaving it, I think, over time and letting it percolate, letting it just drift around in my mind and think, how’s the best way to do this? These different categories and different ideas of types of activity, of ways to transform content into experiences, first of all, became a spreadsheet and kind of was really useful for me.

Terry:
I was finding this spreadsheet really useful of if I was looking for an idea, a way to rapidly iterate and look down different ones and reject and accept things that would move things forwards. And then I kind of hit on the idea that, because I’m a real big fan of card decks and the power that you can get from playing around with cards and moving them around. I don’t know if you know that Dimitri Mendeleev created the periodic table by doing that with the elements on different cards and moving them around and looking at their different properties and realizing what the patterns and connections, you know, I’ve always loved those kinds of ideas and ways of doing things and just this kind of connection I made, that actually, if I turned each of these ideas of different ways to transform learning content into a card, then I and other people would be able to play with those cards and look around, sort and sift them in different ways until I could find the one that would really be right for their particular piece of learning content. So that kind of process of doing it, quite letting it percolate and letting it find its own path, but then using my inspirations, such as my obsession, I guess, with cards to give it some shape, really, in the end, I think resulted in a product that I was really happy with. But as I’ve gone out and introduced it to the wider world, I’ve had some really great and satisfying feedback on people coming back to me and saying that it’s really helped them to get their ideas into something that really works amazing.

Rob:
And there could be like a million questions I could ask about this, for sure. But the main one is if somebody was trying to sort of. Because I feel that what you’re saying from this one is, amongst other things, is that sort of your life’s work, in a way, was poured into this endeavor. Right. In many ways, it’s like, well, all I’ve been doing, I like to let it be there for somebody else whenever they need and I’m not around.

Rob:
And again, not to be sort of make it about life. And when life ends, nothing of the sort. It’s just when you’re not around or you already consulted them and they still need some help or whatever that looks like. Right. If somebody was trying to do something, maybe along those lines, is there any recommendation you think you could provide in that sense from your experience, again, from doing what you have done at this stage?

Terry:
You mean turning their lives work into something like that?

Rob:
Yeah, maybe creating a card deck again. Because sometimes creating the card deck and a game based learning through cards, I’m sure, is something that you can definitely, you’ve done before, and you’ve helped people do that. And that’s part of the work that we frequently do. But if it goes to sort of a further impact in that way, like they want to turn again, maybe their life’s work or something very important to them into this kind of game or game based learning of cods in particular, is there any recommendation that you would like to make sure people don’t forget about doing or whatever?

Terry:
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. A couple of things I would say. Don’t rush ahead too fast to the final product. Definitely.

Terry:
What I created had iterations through two different spreadsheets and various other documents to, I think, four different drafts of the cards themselves. So let the kind of process find its own way, I guess, is one thing, I’d say. But also think about the affordances. And I know that’s quite a kind of technical word in a way. But what is something like a card, or if you’re using something else, not a card, a board game or whatever, what are the things that it really excels at that it allows you to do or allows other people to do?

Terry:
I think I was really guided by that in my process, thinking about, well, what do cards allow people to do? For instance, they allow people to lay things out in a spread in front of them or to shuffle and look at one and focus on one thing. Okay. So if that’s what they’re good at, if that’s what they help people to do, how can I really lean into that and take advantage of that?

Rob:
That’s really important, like thinking about the affordances, as you were just saying. I think that’s crucial, especially when thinking about different forms or modalities of game based learning and whatnot. So thank you very much for those recommendations. And Terry, again, with the experience that you’ve got, all the stuff that you’ve done at this point, I’m sure that there are ways for you to do things, and this kind of maybe includes a little bit of what we were discussing before about your card deck. Right.

Rob:
So what’s your process when you’re faced with a challenge that maybe has to do with game based learning gamification, how do you do it? What are the steps? Give us a little bit of insights or tell us how do your cards work so that we can look into that further? I don’t know. Wherever you want to go, for sure.

Terry:
Yeah, I mean, I do have a kind of process from end to end. It gets quite flexible, especially in the middle, but I think that it’s actually not massively dissimilar from. I was listening to some of your episodes from July last year, July 23, around kind of gamification process, five step process, and it’s a really sound kind of idea. And mine’s quite similar. It is really being very clear and making sure I’m clear up front on the who’s going to be doing the learning, why, what it’s intended to achieve, and what, what is it that we’ve actually got to transfer in terms of skills or knowledge or whatever?

Terry:
And then after that, I guess, is it where it gets a little bit more open, but often there is a period, if I can afford it, of letting it sit and just allowing myself. I’m a great believer in that. That as soon as you’ve got a problem on your mind or a challenge on your mind, things will fit into it. So it’s there. It’s at the back of my brain, and I’m looking around me for inspiration, ideally.

Terry:
And that inspiration might come from my board game shelf, it might come from my steam library. It might come though definitely from a framework. And often I will kind of cycle through different frameworks and different tools. So the transform deck definitely would be one of them, but also things like Yukai Chow’s Octalis’framework, Andre Marcheski’s periodic table. I know that you’re using some of that actually in your model as well, or depending on what stage I’m in or what kind of thing it is, whether it’s more gamification or whether it’s more games based learning, maybe Nicole Lazaro’s four keys to fun.

Terry:
So a lot of different kind of frameworks that might just try and get in front of me, see whether they fit in or give me a little bit of inspiration, or things like lists of game mechanics, which I’ve developed, the one on board game geeks, to my own kind of version of that list, which I use for that. And then as well as the transformed. Got another framework that I do use that helps me because I developed it for myself and for my own needs, that I call the six levers of games based learning. So that’s really helpful way for me to kind of summarize some of the things that games do really well that’s relevant to learning in particular.

Rob:
Amazing. And again, it’s from the process you were mentioning, the things that diverge and don’t. Where can we find out more about how this works?

Terry:
The six levers?

Rob:
Yeah. How you do it. If there is anything online or even if you have a product, I don’t know. How do we do it?

Terry:
Yeah, so it’s not a product research at the moment. At the moment, it’s a few different articles, straight essays and webinars. So you can find the article that kind of summarizes the six levers, and it’s something I use in webinars and presentations when I do them. So if anybody’s on my mailing list, then they’ll find out about those when I’m doing them. But it is something that I’m developing, actually, into probably a book and certainly an online cohort based course to try and pass on some of those ideas.

Terry:
Definitely. Sorry. The other thing I should say is that this is the middle stage that I’m talking about here. It doesn’t end there, obviously. Then there’s further stages in my process of.

Terry:
Okay, I’ve got ideas now let’s try and narrow it down the other end of the diamond and get it into a final form and play, test, play, test. Get feedback until it’s amazing, amazing.

Rob:
Thank you very much for that. And Terry, as you mentioned, you’ve listened to a few episodes as well. You’ve heard the questions more than once is there anybody that comes to your mind that you say, well, I’d really like to listen to this person answering these are a similar set of questions on the professor game podcast. I might be even inspired by listening to this person.

Terry:
Yeah, there is, definitely, actually. So, C? Ty Negrin is a professor of philosophy at Utah at university, and he has some incredible ideas, I think about games as a medium, as an artistic medium, the way that he frames it, but I think it’s also really relevant to learning. And he talks a lot about sculpting player agency by using some of the key things, like which obstacles are you putting in front of people or which goals are you setting within a game? And the ideas that come out of that, for me are just really, really inspiring.

Terry:
And he talks about them very, very well. I would love to see him on your podcast.

Rob:
Can you repeat the name? I’m not sure I caught it.

Terry:
Well, yeah, no problem. C? Thai Ngoyen. I think I’m pronouncing that surname right, but. C?

Terry:
Thai. T-H-I nguyen. N-G-U-Y-E-N. Amazing.

Rob:
Amazing. We’ll see if we can get in contact with C? Thai Nguyen to see if we can have this person on the podcast. Sounds like a very exciting guest to have. Sure.

Rob:
And keeping up with the recommendations, what book would you say would be inspiring or interesting for our engagers to have in their bookshelf?

Terry:
Yeah, I mean, if I could recommend a couple, I would go with. So his book, actually, games agency as art, is really, really interesting in terms of expanding some of those ideas that I was just talking about around player agency and around games as a medium, in the same way that painting or anything else is a medium, the book itself is on the academic side of things. So maybe if I could offer a contrast in terms of a book that I think is really practical and really appealing to anyone, which is, and I know you’re aware of this book and you’ve had Jessie Schell on your show, but the art of game design by Jesse Schell is, to me, an incredible achievement. It just staggers me how big the book is, but at the same time, how accessible it is and how full of different ideas. You can just open it to any page and just find inspiration about a different part of considering and producing games.

Terry:
And although he’s come from a background of games or game like things at kind of amusement parks and in digital games and computer games, I think the things that I’ve found out of it are applicable to literally any kind of game that you could.

Rob:
Stuff, good stuff, great recommendations, for sure. Actually, when you said the book by Jesse Schell, I turned around and looked at it in my bookshelf. Lovely book. Amazing guest as well, if you want to listen to his episode.

Terry:
Yeah, no, I did listen really good.

Rob:
Yeah, he’s amazing. Absolutely. And his studio has. I mean, you can probably still consider him an indie studio, but it’s already like a lot more than when you think of an indie studio. It’s not what he’s managed to have in this period at this point.

Rob:
They already do games for Nintendo Switch and that kind of stuff. They’ve really been growing significantly and I’m amazed and happy about the fact that they’ve been able to do that. There’s a german expression, I’m sure I’m getting it wrong or I’m probably not pronouncing it. Well, that’s not even the word. It’s schadenfreude or something like that, which is when people enjoy of seeing others suffer.

Rob:
There’s the exact opposite of that. I’ve heard this. I don’t know exactly what the word is. Through meditation and buddhist traditions. There’s the opposite of that.

Rob:
Well, I feel the exact opposite of schadenfreud. When I see Jesse’s and the shell studio achievements, it’s like, wow, amazing. Like, it’s great to see that can actually happen.

Terry:
Yeah, there is a word for that. I can’t think what it is, but yeah, that’s.

Rob:
Think. And again, it was a long time ago that I did these courses and I haven’t meditated in a while, especially since we have our kid at home. I don’t find the time as I used to, but it could be loving kindness or something along those lines with the translation to English. But yeah, it’s mudita or something like that. It’s starting to come, but I’m not sure.

Rob:
But that’s exactly the way I like. The best way for me to describe when I see that kind of achievement is absolutely that of course you would like to be a part of it. I’m not a part of his achievement in any way, but it’s exciting to see that. It actually inspires me to say that’s really available. It’s not just the big firms that have been around for so long and that do best and the worst practices for sure.

Rob:
Is it accessible?

Terry:
You say you’re not a part of it, but I think if you recommend it and if you engage with it, then in a way you are a part of it. I recommended that book to a colleague in the game space learners space. And she was completely inspired by it. And she came back and thanked me for introducing the book to her. And that made me feel, in some small way, a part of it.

Rob:
Yeah. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I’m happy to be a part, especially in the sense of collaborating and so on. But it’s one thing to be that and another one is to actually, I realized after I had Jesse on the show, after I’ve been following him for years, I realized, a former colleague from the university that she was, I think she’s not anymore. She’s a programmer as myself, but I never really dedicated to programming but that’s what I studied, computer engineering that she was actually working at the studio and it’s like, wow, amazing. So she actually was literally a part.

Rob:
Like, she can say, oh, that game or that thing that was there. I actually did some stuff in there, which I’m sure is definitely a proud thing for her to be able to say. So that’s what I meant, definitely. I’ve recommended Jesse, not enough, for sure, and his book, but plenty of times because I know the work there is absolutely amazing. So thanks for that.

Rob:
For sure, Terry. And we’ve talked about other people and we’ve talked about your products. So what would you say? Is that thing that you excel at, that thing that you do better than most, not necessarily than everyone. Maybe it is, maybe not.

Rob:
But some people feel, like, humbled when I ask this question just to make sure it’s a superpower. But it doesn’t have to be exclusive. You don’t have to be the only one. I just sort of want to get a feel of what you have seen is that thing that you do in this world of gamification and game based learning that helps you stand out from what other great work other people are doing as well.

Terry:
Yeah. I’ve remembered you asking this question from previous shows and I was thinking what I would answer. I’m not one for applying my own trumpet, actually. But I guess one thing that I do recognize in myself and I see it helping me when I’m creating game based learning is seeing patterns and connections. I think I’m always seeing patterns and connections between things, ways that things are related.

Terry:
And sometimes it drives my wife crazy because I’m singing one song over the top of another because I’ve just realized they use the same chords or interrupting the film to say where the actor comes from. But in a game based learning context, I think it really comes into its own because there’s things like seeing patterns in the reality or the work that you’re trying to put into some kind of simulation or games based version of, or seeing patterns and connections between the challenge that’s in front of you in terms of creating a game based solution to something and some of the things that you do, some of the things that you play, some of the games that you play and how they could match or how one could connect with the other. So I think, yeah, seeing patterns and connections between things and bringing things together or finding a way to make something fit with something else.

Rob:
Fantastic and super useful superpower, that’s for sure. And, Terry, what would you say is your favorite game?

Terry:
Again, I’m really, really tough. Kind of narrowing things down. I can probably narrow it down to my favorite computer based game or my favorite board game computer. It would be Bulldogs Gate three. Which one?

Terry:
Game of the year this year. So it’s not a left field choice, but absolutely. I think one of the reasons it’s been so popular is it does the story thing so well, it makes it feel like your story more than any other kind of interactive story based game that I’ve seen so many different branching paths of narrative that seem to connect much further down the road in a way that is just an amazing achievement. And I guess in terms of a board game, a really, really big fan of the zoo game arc Nova, because I think there’s a really nice mechanic in that with the actions that you take which engages you and makes you really think every turn and look forward to every turn about, oh, how am I going to use my different action options in the most beneficial way?

Rob:
Good stuff. Good stuff. So, actually, we do have a little bit of time to go for the random question, which we haven’t done in a bit. So, Terry, let’s find a random question that suits your profile great and bring it in. So, yes, we have.

Rob:
Well, this is a general one, but I’m sure you can have a good go at this one, which is Kaylin Huntress is asking which technique is all hype and doesn’t actually work? What do you say to that?

Terry:
Oh, that’s an interesting one. Which technique is all hype? Yeah, I’m struggling to think of something that fits the question exactly, but I guess the thing that comes to mind most readily is getting bogged down in mechanics or theme, to be honest, but getting bogged down in the bells and whistles and what kind of things we could have in the game, what kind of things we could get people to do, what kind of amazing systems we could have, which I think is all in opposition to, or just how could we make them have lots of fun? Which is all in opposition to elegance and simplicity in achieving what you’re supposed to be here to achieve, which is usually, in our case, to help people learn. Certainly fun and engagement is usually going to be a big plank of that.

Terry:
To not get caught up with all of those different shiny things that make you feel really great about having designed something quite complex or fernand pressive looking and focus on what job are we here to do and what’s the most elegant way to do it.

Rob:
So basically, looking at too much of the mechanics and the perks and the stuff, which sounds like often when you get a client or somebody who’s looking into this, they’re thinking of the shiny things. That’s what they’re thinking of. And at least, I don’t know if your experience is similar, but it’s hard to get them to concentrate on, like, yeah, we can do this or that, but what is it that you want actually to achieve? And then we’ll see if a racing car theme is the thing that you need, which you saw at work with this. I use this example a lot.

Rob:
Sales team and racing cars and very competitive bunch. Your team is an R and D group of scientists. I don’t know if racing cars is going to be. Maybe it is. Don’t get me wrong.

Rob:
Let’s understand what it is that you want to get from this bunch, rather than jump on whatever it is, that example that you saw somewhere else to make it sort of figure out really what it is that you need. So I love your answer, but again, I don’t know if that’s been your experience as well.

Terry:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think for me, part of that comes down to how are people measured or how are they rated? What do they care about? And I think sometimes people don’t necessarily spend as much time as they should on measuring whether something really had the impact it was supposed to, and instead they’re thinking about, how will it play with some of the people that I need to be talking to on a day to day basis.

Rob:
Absolutely. So, Terry, we’re running towards the end now. Is there anywhere you want to lead us? I don’t know. Any links where we can find out more about you?

Rob:
Do you have any final piece of advice? I don’t know. It’s your time. It’s sort of a free microphone at this point before we go to game over.

Terry:
Yeah, sure. I mean, in terms of advice, my advice to anybody who is creating game space, learning or anything related is play. Play as much and as many different. One of the things I’ve really found is inspiration can pop up in some really strange places. And I’m obsessed with computer games and board games, but sometimes I’ll just be playing just a kid’s game with one of my nephews and I’ll suddenly think, hey, there’s something about this game, which is why it’s stood the test of time as a game that’s passed down from kid to kid.

Terry:
So I think there’s definitely just play as many different things as you can. That’s in terms of advice, in terms of connecting, I’d love to connect. People can find me via my website, untoldplay.com, where you could sign up to my mailing list if you like, or feel free to email me at terry@untoldplay.com or you can look me up Terry Pearce on LinkedIn and I’d be very happy to connect.

Rob:
Amazing. Thank you very much for all of that, Terry. Definitely a pleasure having you on the podcast. However, Terry and engagers, as you know, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. Hey engagers, thank you for listening to the professor game podcast.

Rob:
And if you want more interviews with amazing guests like Terry, please go to professorgame.com Slash subscribe and get started on our email list for free. We will be in contact and you’ll be the first to know of our opportunities that we offer here on professor game, and you will definitely be a first to know. And remember, as we always like to remind you, because this helps us continue to build this community of engagers. Before you go on to your next mission, if you you haven’t already, please subscribe or follow whatever the button looks like on your favorite podcast app. This is totally for free and listen to the next episode of Professor Game.

Rob:
See you there.

End of transcription

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