Rob Alvarez Bucholska
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When Perfect Balance Fails: Lessons in Gamified Design with Alireza Ranjbar | Episode 388

 

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What happens when a perfectly balanced gamification system fails with users? Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi shares this shocking experience and unpacks how cultural nuances, hidden perceptions, and behavioral insights can make or break your engagement strategy.

Starting in high school, Alireza used computers as a means to create and play games, first diving into programming and then exploring 2D and 3D art. Eventually, he discovered his true passion in game design, which sparked a deep curiosity about human behavior. With this newfound interest, he went for psychology, sociology, behavioral economics, and persuasive design, continually learning about motivational theories like Self-Determination Theory (SDT), Flow, and the Fogg Behavior Model, as well as every aspect of behavioral economics available. Soon enough, he realized these principles and insights could be applied outside of games as well. This revelation led him to design engagement solutions and gamified campaigns across a variety of fields, including Fintech, E-learning, E-health, Open Innovation, and even offline advertising. With experience in designing for diverse platforms and genres, Alireza has contributed to nearly every area of gamification and game development, from systems design, AI, and UX to marketing and monetization. However, economy and balance—the ‘hidden’ yet crucial elements of experience design—have always been his primary focus and specialty. For him, design is about striking a balance between a fun, fair player experience and sustainable monetization for a successful business. Above all, he views players as complex individuals with limitless dimensions, constantly seeking to understand and interpret the behavioral data collected from in-game interactions—and beyond.

Rob is a host and consultant at Professor Game as well as an expert, international speaker and advocate for the use of gamification and games-based solutions, especially in education and learning. He’s also a professor and workshop facilitator for the topics of the podcast and LEGO SERIOUS PLAY (LSP) for top higher education institutions that include EFMD, IE Business School and EBS among others in Europe, America and Asia.

 

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Looking forward to reading or hearing from you,

Rob

 

Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (00:00)
from the mathematical point of view, clear and perfect, like a beautiful equilibrium. And then it hit the users really hard. We got so much bad reactions from the users of the service. And the interesting part was that they didn’t know why they were angry with the service.

Rob (00:29)
Hey, this is Professor Game where we interview successful practitioners of games, gamification and game thinking to help us multiply engagement and retention. And I am Rob Alvarez. I’m a consultant, a coach, and I’m the founder of Professor Game. And I’m also a professor of gamification and game inspired strategies at EFMD, IE Business School, EBS, University and other places around the world. And before we dive into the interview, if you’re struggling with retention and churning your business,

looking to find out how to make sure your users stick around, you will find our free resources useful. Find it for free in the link in the description. And today we have Alireza. Alireza started in high school using computers as a means to create and play games. He first dived into computer programming and then explored 2D and 3D art. Eventually he discovered his true passion in game design. This sparked a deep curiosity about human behavior.

With this interest, he went for psychology, sociology, behavioral economics, persuasive design, continually learning about motivational theories like self-determination, the fog behavior model, as well as every aspect of behavioral economics he could get his hands on. He realized that these principles and insights could be applied outside of games as well, and this revelation led him to design engagement solutions and gamified campaigns across a variety.

The fields, including fintech, e-learning, e-health, open innovation, and even offline advertising. And with experience in design for diverse platforms and genres, Isla Rees has contributed to nearly every area of gamification and game development from systems design, AI and UX to marketing and monetization. However, economy and balance, which is the hidden yet crucial element of experience design have always been his primary focus and specialty for him. Design is about striking a balance between a fun,

fair player experience and a sustainable monetization for a successful business. Above all, he views players as complex individuals with limitless dimensions, constantly seeking to understand and interpret behavioral data collected from in-game interactions and beyond. Engage us so we have here with us, Alarisa, is that a good way to say it?

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (02:45)
Yeah, that’s a good way.

Rob (02:48)
Decent at least, right? I’m sure there’s a lot worse than what I said. I do my best. I have a bunch of international students always and it’s, you know, I get it wrong more than half of the times.

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (02:59)
Thanks

Rob (03:02)
is what it is, right? thanks, Alariza, for joining us. We do need to know before we get into the questions. Are you prepared to engage?

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (03:10)
Actually that’s my middle name. Let’s do this. Let’s do that.

Rob (03:16)
go

because Alarizzo, wanted to, know, after of course the intro, you know, people have some general information about you, but what does, you know, what does BAU feel like? Like what are the things that you’re doing on regular basis? What’s, you know, what’s up in your mind?

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (03:30)
So I regularly add new hobbies, like every two or three months. I work hard on making good habits and removing what I think is not a good one. So the whole habit building process has been with me. And I try to be mindful and meditative through the day as much as I can.

I think I started with the whole mindfulness thing when I was 18 or something. So yeah, that’s a regular basis for me too.

Rob (04:10)
I’m trying to get my daughter started. She’s two years old, you beyond feeling the breath on her belly. That’s as far as you get. And for six breaths or something.

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (04:19)
I would go with whatever she’s comfortable with. She might be comfortable with mindfulness with walking or just concentrating on any work that she does. That doesn’t matter. Just smaller steps.

Rob (04:37)
I always say that mine is playing games and video games.

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (04:41)
Exactly.

Rob (04:42)
So, Alireza, you know, very interesting background that you have. We’ve been talking for a while. interview has been a long time coming in many ways for different reasons. But of course, we always dive in with a very, you know, heavy loaded question, so to speak, but it adds, it sets the pace, it sets the, you know, the idea of what we want to dive into. And it’s about failure. First attempt at learning. Was there a time when you were applying these gainful strategies, gainfication, whatnot, that things just did not go well?

We wouldn’t be there in that story with you essentially to take away some of lessons.

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (05:16)
Yeah, there have been a lot. Of course, I survived them all, but the one that really set the tone of my future learnings and going through the whole process was one that I think it was like 2014 or 15. It was like two or three years that I have officially started designing

gamification and doing projects based on that. And it was a fintech project in the financial industry. And we changed the balance goal for the whole service. And I needed to do a rebalance for the system. And I did it. It was

from the mathematical point of view, clear and perfect, like a beautiful equilibrium. And then it hit the users really hard. We got so much bad reactions from the users of the service. And the interesting part was that they didn’t know why they were angry with the service.

That was really interesting. So back then there was a really small like group of all the famous gamification designers that you probably know all of them. And I had the chance to be part of the group for some reason. I just discussed the situation with them, even sent my designs in and

They couldn’t find any problems with the designs. That was crazy. just I was going through everything like two nights without sleep. In one of the conversations, I reread that someone, I can’t remember exactly who was it, and I can’t find all that conversation somewhere just to write it and have it as a

good memory that someone mentioned that maybe some changes in the formulas is not a good match with the culture in this community that you are working with. And this was a really interesting like moment for me that although everything that we do is with numbers.

somehow in the background for whatever behavior we design or change. But the considerations are much, much higher than that. So I revisited this design and I understood that a practice that I use for changing some numbers.

totally unconsciously resembles the inflation in a society. A very underlying inflation that makes people angry, although they don’t know what’s happening to their like power of trade change. Yeah, just inflation, just but very, very underlying like

Rob (08:56)
Just like inflation, right?

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (09:03)
not the numbers that like a government or a system just introduces and you know about it. So yeah, that was hard.

Rob (09:13)
So if you were to do something like this again, and I’m sure you since 2015 you’ve probably done then quite a few things that might be kind of related or have some commonalities. What would you do differently or how would you approach the problem differently perhaps?

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (09:28)
When like, you know, for every service application, we go with the player types, user types, we create personas, we go through all the design and balance goals and everything. And definitely since then, one of the key aspects of every designs that I have considered has

been a look in the history and culture of the community that I’m building with. And, there and for, yeah, exactly. Learning more about them. Like what has happened to them? What, what are their fears? What are, their previous problems that, even they don’t know where it has come from, but has affected them. So.

I’m considering those all too. Like I go through every motivational theory that I get my hands on. Definitely my basis is on the self-determination theory. I go through the flow theory. I go with the Fox behavior model. I check them all several times through the whole system. I invite like

outside people to review the whole design to because when I’m doing the design, I might get like numb about something and don’t understand that even unconsciously I have used some sort of a heuristic or bias that I have not balanced through other systems to cope with. So that that might affect the user.

An outsider view. So many things.

Rob (11:28)
So many things, so many things going on.

Yeah. So Alireza, let’s actually turn that around and talk about a time when actually things didn’t go well. What did that look like? Now it’s a proud moment or whatever you want to go for. Of course, we’re looking for those key success factors, et cetera, but definitely the story is an important part of this to get there.

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (11:52)
So actually with the business and everything, there has been many things like from the games that I have designed from my own small company back home. But one of the most interesting ones was that was a project that we did for the somehow

against the discrimination and stigma against for the people living with HIV. And it was selected in the United Nations, in the UNESCO. It got rewards, the paper published. But more than everything, the effect of all that was really, I would say.

satisfactory and enjoyable. We know that there are lots of stigma against people living with HIV in the whole health care system of the different countries. So for that, I helped a really talented group of people, most of them doctors and they…

most of them in the healthcare system. I have them design and balance a system that would take doctors like and of course medical students through a journey with different steps to teach them that people living with HIV are just like others. And if you

doesn’t matter what health issues they have, if you take care of the process, there is nothing to worry and you don’t need to be judgmental or anything about these people. They are just like us. And this really warms my heart to see that it was a really successful program.

Lots of medical students and doctors went through that and it’s got a good recognition in the departments and international organizations dealing with it.

Rob (14:29)
Amazing,

that sounds great. And with all this experience, again, you mentioned in 2015, I think you said, was a date, you had already a few years working, so it’s been a while. When you approach your projects, when you’re approaching a problem you want to solve using these strategies, what is your process? do you go about these

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (14:47)
So I’m a bit like picky while accepting projects and really have some, like I would say, red lines and everything with morality and ethical issues and all that. So considering all those, when I accept the project, before like,

going any further, I start researching about the industry, about the subject, going through all the, there have been projects that I have helped with like, products that I am not familiar with at all. So I have started buying magazines, searching, going through different social media, learning about them, how people perceive those, how affects,

people’s life and of course all the documentation and the system that there is for the product like what are the whole goal of the process and what they want to achieve based on this learning about the users of course we normally call them players learning about all

They have like doing interviews, getting information, online information, gathering all sorts of data. And based on all that, I would go with a really primary design with a team that I prefer to set up with the people inside that process and service. I rarely take

outside people with me to do the project inside an organization or a company. I prefer to build a team there, teach them, and also get lots of useful information because they know the ins and outs of the business much better than anyone.

as a secondary thinking process that helps with keeping some people in the organization that know how the process has gone. And after I’m departed from that company, they still know how to manage and deal with any possible upcoming issue. So with the team, we base a primary design.

and with the design, the like main loops and side loops, the core loop of the process and everything. Like what are the emotions that we want our users have? Are we using any sort of bias? What would go with the economy in the process? What’s the benefit for the user? What’s the ratio between benefit of the user and the business and all that?

And after this has all been in place, I usually go with a simulation run. I love simulations because they visualize the whole connectivity and relationship in a project and the basis of the numbers that are there and everything. And

As soon as we’ve got the results from the simulations, we go for MVP. I have had background in like every aspect of projects. Like I started programming when I was like 14 or 15. I have done 3D softwares. I have done marketing. So there’s a really good terminology there to.

Talk with all the people and departments responsible for the process getting their info and then going for the MVP with the team and with the MVP it starts the loops of testing with the users getting feedback tuning and Going to a place that it’s like closed beta then open beta and then the

Gold release is there. I usually add one other step. And that would be my secondary planning and thinking step. Considering what comes out of the whole process can change what in the future and can result in what changes later and how to keep the whole service alive. Like

Basic plan for the future updates of the whole service and that becomes usually a place that I depart from the service. Of course, I have kept my connection with almost all of them. I’ve got friends everywhere in those businesses. So if anything comes up, they usually let me know and I help them. Yeah, that’s

That’s a very normal and fast process that I can explain how it with a project.

Rob (20:40)
That’s fantastic. I mean, very detailed. There’s a lot of stuff that we can take from that. A lot to learn, a lot to apply ourselves if that’s something that the engagers are definitely keen on doing as well. then Ellery’s with that vast experience, that huge process, you know, very detailed process that you shared with us. Is there a best practice that thing that, know, whether they take your process or do something else or any kind of product, you’d say, well, in general, if you do this thing, your project should at least be.

better than it was before without it.

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (21:14)
The best practice of

For me, it really comes naturally. I’ve got some sort of, I would say, knack for it. having the whole… I know people with… when going through the design, they consider the whole goal of the design and everything. But also there are secondary goals and secondary effects. I would say being mindful about those…

secondary steps would help too. considering the whole goal of the balances that you are doing, the whole system that you are putting there. With that, just that because every project is somehow unique.

Rob (22:09)
Fantastic, fantastic. Now we get into the recommendations because you’ve been, you’ve been, we’ve been connected for a while. I know you’ve listened to quite a few episodes as well. Is there anyone that you would like to listen that you haven’t heard on the podcast or that you’re just curious to hear from answering these questions? A future guest.

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (22:26)
You’ve got you’ve got so many episodes Definitely have not heard all of them because every time that I open the list and just I click on one of them or touch one of them to listen. There’s something new and and it’s still going Yeah, there are definitely two people that I would love to hear from one is the yours dormant

I don’t know if you know Jurisdormas. Jurisdormas is the creator and co-founder of Machinations. The platform that is actually one of the best tools for simulating and balancing the whole game design and game base and behavior design process that’s out there.

And I started actually with the flash version of that. And currently machinations.io is a really big platform with lots of followers and everything. So I would really love to hear from your Thomas and.

Rob (23:46)
Sounds like fantastic person to have on the podcast.

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (23:49)
That’s for sure. He would be amazing, I would say so. Yeah, and of course, I don’t know if you have talked with Dr. Fogger or not.

Rob (24:03)
No, BJ Fogg, he’s been on our radar for quite a while.

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (24:08)
That’s the man I follow even on like social media. He’s very mindful. He’s very I would say his tiny habits have helped me a lot and I’ve learned a lot. And of course, the whole model, the behavior model is really useful. So he would be also interesting.

There are lots of other people. Yeah, I can send you a list like lots of gamification and behavior designers here in Sweden. They are fantastic.

Rob (24:50)
Absolutely, absolutely many of them and talking about recommendations. How about a book? Which book would you recommend the Engagers and why would it be that book?

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (24:58)
So for the book, actually I would go with Joris Dormans and BJ Fager there, like the game mechanics, advanced game design from Joris Dormans. If you want to go deep in the design, like with simulations and mechanics and everything, that’s a really fantastic book. I think Joris Dormans and Adam Grant

have written that. And of course, the tiny habits by B.J. Fogg. That’s another one to go with.

Rob (25:41)
They are certainly fantastic recommendations and I think I’m thinking like we’ve heard of BJ Fogg many times in the podcast, but I’m not sure somebody has recommended specifically tiny habits. It’s definitely a great book to keep in the radar and talking about gamification, behavioral design and all these things. What would you say is your thing? Like that superpower, that thing that you do better than most other people at least.

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (26:09)
I’ve got some sort of natural instinct and knack for…

balance, I would say, like with economy, emotions, like considerations of the flow in the process. I think it comes from my really deep interest in all those things and practicing that a lot. Probably, yeah. I’m really comfortable with

understanding the balance of the process and rebalancing it to the desired outcomes. So yeah, I’m good with that, I would say.

Rob (26:59)
Sounds great! Very, very useful. And now we get to the difficult question, Alireza. What would you say is your favorite game?

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (27:06)
that’s hard. That’s very hard. Considering that I play lots of games. Almost trying in a couple of new games every day, every other day. But let’s go with the old favorites. Like, I would go with the Journey from that game company.

You probably have heard of the fair.

Rob (27:38)
journey,

the one that you’re just sort of traveling around.

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (27:40)
Yes, the first game was Flow. yeah, actually it was the doctorate thesis on the, using the whole flow theory in the game design. And the game came out with the flow, but Journey, would say is going beyond that flow.

some sort of a mythical game. Yeah, that’s a really… But of course I love all the like Uncharted franchise and yeah, lots of games.

Rob (28:27)
Definitely many games to enjoy all around.

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (28:33)
Lots of them. Lots of them.

Rob (28:36)
So, Alireza, we’re arriving to the end of the interview. Is there any final words that you want to give us? And of course, let us know where we can find out more about what you’re doing, your work, whatever you’re focused on, what are you doing nowadays?

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (28:48)
Definitely you can find me on LinkedIn. I’m not posting exactly about what are my recent works. My recent project is actually helping with balance of a serious board game. And it’s a serious game as a board game on circular economy.

I’m helping with balancing and design of that project. of course, lots of other projects are going on simultaneously. I’m also on Instagram, but Instagram is usually my photos that I take on my strolls in the forest. that might not be helpful to it. Might be interesting, not with the engagers probably.

Rob (29:36)
Interesting in a different way.

Alireza Ranjbar Shourabi (29:47)
I would say being really anxious about our secondary processes, like we design and design and we achieve the goals that we are intended for our designs. But most of the time, I would say we forgot about the secondary effects that those goals might have.

in our society, like from the ethical point of view or what happens with the morality at the end of that gamification process that we have put in that service. I would say it doesn’t matter if you are a gamification designer or any sort of behavior designer. Just be careful with those secondary effects and we would have a

much happier and healthier society.

Rob (30:51)
I am sure that we will. again, Alarisa, thank you very much for agreeing to this interview, for taking time to be here with us, sharing your insights, your experience, your knowledge, everything you’ve been doing. However, Alarisa and Engagers, as you know, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. Hey, Engagers, and thank you for listening to the Professor Game.

And since you’re interested in this world of creating motivation, engagement, loyalty, using game inspired solutions, how about you join us on our free online community at Professor Game on School. You can find the link right below in the description, but the main thing is to click there, join us. It’s a platform called School. It’s for free.

and you will find plenty of resources there. We’ll be up to date with everything that we’re doing, any opportunities that we might have for you. And of course, before you go on to your next mission, before you click continue, please remember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of Professor Game. See you there.

 

End of transcription