Rob Alvarez Bucholska
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The Great Gambit: Teaching Peace Through Play with Anders Kjellberg | Episode 394

 

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What happens when a teacher turns history into a simulation?
We interview Swedish educator Anders Kjellberg, who co-created The Great Gambit, a role-playing simulation designed to help students understand the driving forces behind conflict—and how to prevent war. From sweaty failures to empowering classroom dynamics, Anders shares what worked, what didn’t, and how learning through games can activate students like never before.

Anders works as a teacher in Swedish upper secondary school. His main subjects are History and Swedish but he is also part of the school’s educational steering group and takes part in a collaborational project with other Nordic upper secondary shools.

Apart from being a teacher, Anders is a musician, playing mostly bass, guitars and syntheizsers in several of bands and records a lot of music in his house up in the Swedish forests.

Together with his friend Zhenya Luchaninau, he has created an educational tool/simulation to be used in history class in upper secondary school, called “The Great Gambit”. The scene is a tumultous transitional period in Europes history, dealing with the years between 1871 and 1914: the build up to World War One. The purpose of the game is, to put it short: make the students understand the driving forces behind conflicts and wars and, hopefully, teach them to understand how a society can avoid such things.

Rob is a host and consultant at Professor Game as well as an expert, international speaker and advocate for the use of gamification and games-based solutions, especially in education and learning. He’s also a professor and workshop facilitator for the topics of the podcast and LEGO SERIOUS PLAY (LSP) for top higher education institutions that include EFMD, IE Business School and EBS among others in Europe, America and Asia.

 

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Lets’s do stuff together!

Looking forward to reading or hearing from you,

Rob

 

Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Anders Kjellberg (00:00.366)
all of sudden it doesn’t work and you have students sitting there after school they are very patient and I’m sweating I’m their teacher

Engagers, welcome back to the Professor Game Podcast, where as you know, we interview successful practitioners of games, gamification, and game thinking to bring us the best of their experiences to get ideas, insights, and inspiration that help us in the process of improving retention, engagement, motivation, and all of these things together. As you know, I am also Rob. I’m a consultant coach and the founder of the Professor Game Podcast and Business, and I teach gamification, game-based learning at

places like IE, EBS, EFND and other places around the world. And before we dive into the interview, remember that if you’re struggling with retention and or churn in your business, you can find all of our free resources that you can get access by just clicking on the links on the description. And today we have Anders. Anders is a teacher in Swedish upper secondary school. His main subjects are history and Swedish, but he also

part of the school’s educational steering group and takes part in a collaboration project with other Nordic upper secondary schools. Aside from being a teacher, he’s a musician, as you can see probably when you check out his background. Mostly playing the bass, guitars and synthesizers in several bands and records a lot of music in the house up in the Swedish forests. With his friend Zennia Lukanenau, I’m going to be terrible at pronouncing that for sure, he has created

educational tool simulations to be used in history class in upper secondary school called the Great Gambit. The scene is a tumultuous transitional period in the Europe’s history, dwelling the years between 1871 and 1914, the buildup to World War I. And the purpose, to put it short, is to make the students understand driving forces behind conflicts and wars and hopefully teach them to understand how a society can actually avoid things like wars.

Rob (02:03.008)
Let’s see how we can continue to build up on that. So Anders, are we missing something from that intro?

No, no, you took it, took it. It’s all in there. Thanks.

Anders, are you prepared to engage?

Let’s do this! Anders, can you run us through what a normal day or week month looks like? We want to sort shadow you and see what it looks like to be in your shoes.

Yeah, sure. I’m going up in the morning, of course, like around seven, and I go to work. I live close to my working place, which is a school in Gothenburg. I have my classes prepared for the classes. I correct some tests, like ordinary upper secondary school teacher stuff. And I try to get some room in the day to maybe just

Anders Kjellberg (02:57.378)
I don’t know, sit down and reflect and listen to lots of music and can combine that stuff when doing my regular work. yeah, a week is like Monday to Friday. It’s not that much to talk about. mean, at school, I mean, being a teacher, if you’re not teachers yourself, listening here, I can tell you, is the other one I like. It’s always something new and yeah, sometimes it’s positive and sometimes it’s very stressful, but you never get bored of it. It’s real fun.

And a lot of interesting students are very creative, so that makes me go through the week.

Sounds brilliant. sounds fantastic. So Anders, how about we dive into our first question and it has to do with fail or first attempt at learning. So we want to be there in a moment when this happened with you, especially if you’re using, as we mentioned before, a simulation, game-based learning, gamification and whatnot. We want to be there with you. We want to feel that pain at the right time and especially take away some of those lessons by feeling that pain.

Yeah, no, yeah, I mean, in the setup of the game when we started trying it out, it was kind of stressful. didn’t know anyone who tried this before and we… some problems occurred during the gameplay. some… when you’re all of sudden nothing works, I guess everyone listening has been in those… in that situation sometime. Like, okay, this has been working very good when we tried it out, just me and my colleague, Zhenya.

And now all of a sudden does work and you have this you have these students sitting there after school is not the school activity when we try it out And they are taking their time and they are very patient and I’m sweating I’m their teacher. I’m supposed to be this, you know authority in the classroom Trying to trying to keep face and yeah, so that was kind of stressful but that

Rob (04:51.246)
being right?

Anders Kjellberg (04:59.61)
made us realize a lot of stuff about how to develop the game, make it better, make it run smoothly. yeah, so that was really, really stressful. Also, we made it this with my colleagues at one point, it was kind of the same. had these questions when you as a teacher, mean, you get questions all the time, but maybe not that kind of critical questions that we got from my colleagues. So you really had to have

have answers ready. And I was kind of, yeah. Well, when tech technology doesn’t really work. And also when these unexpected questions occur, that was kind of stressful.

Especially the one where where technology didn’t work. And of course, I know you’ve run this after that. Are there any lessons for like if you’re if this were to happen again, you’re creating a new SIM and you know these things might happen to happen to you in the past. Any tips? Any advice for your future self?

Thanks. Any tips? Yeah. I mean, yeah, I have a tip actually. That was really a tip from Jenny actually. was like, don’t try to cramp in so much when you’re presenting the game, the rules, whatever. They’ll figure it out. They’re intelligent. They’re working with, I’m working at the game developers, upper secondary school.

So that’s like one of their subjects is game development. I’m a history teacher. I don’t know that much about games, but he does. My colleague and he told me don’t try to cramp in so much. Just let it flow and they will understand. Yeah. So that was a really good lesson.

Rob (06:46.478)
There’s a concept I also teach operations besides from gamification and all this stuff. There’s a concept coming from the Japanese called Pokaioke. It’s essentially to build systems in a way in which they are foolproof. So even if you are an absolute moron, you don’t know how to do things, you cannot get it wrong. And I share a bunch of examples with my students, but one of the main ones, which is, it’s very telling and they probably were not alive.

at this point when this happened. You know, when you went to the ATM, that you put in your credit card, your card, and then you put your stuff, you ask for money, and then you get the money, and then you get the credit card. Which comes first? Does it give you your card first or the money first? What do think, Anders?

yeah, it’s been a while. I think you get your… You get your card first, right?

Yes, you do. This used to be the other way around. And the thing is, when you’re going to the cash machine, you’re thinking about the cash. So what tended to happen a lot more than banks were happy to admit was that a lot of people were leaving their cards in the ATM. So since you’re focused on getting the money and you’re saying, me the money, give me the money, give me the money, I’m not going to give you the money until you take your card. So you take your card and then you get the money.

yeah, of course.

Rob (08:09.984)
It’s designed so that even though we are dumb in many ways because our brains are focused on whatever they want to focus at the time, the system does not allow us to be dumb on that occasion. So I don’t know if, you know, yes, we are smart and we have smart students and everybody’s smart around us and I agree with all these things. Don’t get me wrong. design the system so that even if they’re dumb, even if they don’t read what you expect them to read, somehow they’ll still

managed to get one the things that it immediately came into my mind when you were saying all that. Let’s actually flip that. How about talking about the success, whether it’s with that simulation or anything else you’ve used along these lines. I’d like to hear from that. And of course, what went well, know, what lessons you got from that.

Yeah, yeah.

Anders Kjellberg (09:01.742)
No, I mean, we fixed our Genja mostly. mean, he’s the programming part of the game, I’m more the history input. So the teacher in all this, those issues were fixed. And what I experienced from the classroom with some of the students, I knew them since before, so they took out the roles, then they use should we do in the classroom? Like one…

or two students took a more active role in leading the group and coming up with suggestions on what to choose, what to do. I mean, this is a role game in a way, and they really went into a role. So that was something we really take with us. It’s a big step forward, because one of the goals is to make the students more of a participant than just receiver of knowledge or whatever. So being active in the classroom.

So yeah, that was a good thing.

Awesome. you know, through this development process, I know you mentioned that your colleague is the one who’s doing the development and the programming and all that. probably also sort of your thinking together through the design of the game itself. What was the process or if, you know, it was more of a, you know, build it as we can. If you were to build another one, if you were to build it again, would you follow some…

Again, some process like, we go from ideation that means this to this other thing, and then we actually jump into the tech decisions or I don’t know, like, is there something along those lines that you followed or would follow in the future?

Anders Kjellberg (10:39.482)
I think we could consider this game some kind of a template for how to develop Simber games. We met the other day and talked about this. I think we have some kind of a framework now which you can use. We have an idea that works. So I think we don’t need that much of starting stretch.

we can use what we have and just develop that further and place this simulation or role game or whatever in another context, in another time period because this is focused on the time before the World War I but you can easily use this method and place it in another time, Cold War, 30s or whenever, where you would like to do so yeah, we’re discussing that how to like…

make something else, something more of this. So yeah.

Hmm, gotcha, gotcha. You were saying, you know, you were saying about the script. was thinking like, you know, another professor, let’s say comes up to you and says, oh, yes, I saw what you did. And whether it’s another history professor potentially, or, you know, language professor, I don’t know, like somebody who’s thinking about doing something like this, maybe for a similar audience, know, secondary high school, as you were mentioning before.

Like, what would you do first? What would you ask them? yeah, what are you thinking or what? Like, I don’t know. Is it the learning objectives or maybe you start figuring out that out first and see what the game takes you. don’t know. there again, let’s just imagine here that’s happening. What will be the road?

Anders Kjellberg (12:22.174)
Yeah, I mean the learning objectives of course. I think those are the main thing you have to have in mind. What do want to kill children to? What do want the students to learn from this? So that’s the starting point. Then after that you can start thinking about how to develop the game. That was what we did. We started with this. This period is very important. It’s crucial to the kids to know about this.

Starting with the learning objectives, think is the right way to go.

Makes sense. Makes sense. And you know, with the experience you’ve had in this development, creating this game, would you say that there is some sort of best practice? That thing that you say, well, you know, we ran into these issues and maybe we had done this thing, it would have gone better, or we actually did this thing and we realized how impactful it was for a project to make it better.

Yeah, think that like the best practice, I mean, we took a while for us to make this, took about two years to make it. I mean, it was a slow process because, yeah, working part-time or full-time on the side, that takes a while. I mean, I don’t know. It’s a good question though. I think, because we’re talking about the development of the game now, right?

It’s not like how to play it in a classroom.

Rob (13:46.178)
Yeah, you know, of course, like on the on like, again, remember, you know, our audience, the engagers are people who are potentially doing something like what you are. Yeah, or along those lines.

I think that you must start from interest, you know. I mean, I’m really interested in this period, but I also want to learn more from something. I mean, if you want to do some creative work, if we want to break new ground and making educational tools, I mean, that’s hard work in itself. But if you are doing it with something you really like, like on a personal level, which I do, and something you want to learn more about, I think that’s the way to go. I think that’s where you want to start.

I want to investigate this. I want to learn more from this. So I think that’s the best way to, like the best starting point. It was for us. That’s for sure.

Yeah. Makes sense. I like it. After answering these questions, I know you listened to a few episodes as well before. Is there somebody that I don’t know whether inspired you or inspires you nowadays or that you think would be interesting to hear answering these questions as well on the podcast? Does somebody come to your mind?

Yes.

Anders Kjellberg (15:01.354)
Yeah, I mean, for me, your podcast is like more the framework. It’s learning, it’s games, it’s like digital games, mostly. that’s awesome. in my mind, your podcast is a lot about creativity. And so I don’t know. I mean, I’m a musician. I would like to hear Neil Young talk about his process. He’s like one of my favorite musicians and

creators of all time. And some dead people too. mean, we have this Swedish artist called Hilmo Klint, was really far out in early 20th century, but totally unknown because at the time, got then gained reputation throughout the years. And like, was one of the first abstract painters in the world, you know, but totally forgotten before Kandinsky and everyone. I would like to hear her talk about the creative process. That would be really cool.

Like, how did you even come up with this? And what did, what filled you up? And what filled your mind? Taking the set from, away from the more, you know, concrete paintings to these abstract forms, these huge paintings. That would be really cool. So I think mostly, yeah, people doing creative work. Breaking new ground. Maybe that just…

Sounds very generic or something, but that’s interesting. the music I listen to, most of the music I listen to is made, I guess, not that popular at the time it was made, but gained popularity throughout the years. nothing in the young’s case though.

Anybody specific that comes to mind, mentioned somebody at the start, I might have to go back to the recording to actually make sure who that is. But anybody, that one or somebody else?

Anders Kjellberg (16:55.892)
Yeah, that would be… I think Neil Young. Yeah, that’s what I said before. He’s really interesting in this creative process. He made like no sacrifices, I feel. He only did what he felt right. What he felt was right for the moment. Like, not really getting stared in any directions unless he wants to. So yeah, that would be cool.

Sure, Neil Young. Why not? Absolutely. In terms of those recommendations, how about a book? Are there any books you would say, read this and whatever hits your fancy, but that might help people in some way either get inspired directly or indirectly just open up their minds.

Yeah, I picked some books from my bookshelf here. So this is one that you’re watching. This is Hang City. This is a new book from a Swedish author called Mikkel Översand, Michael Ivesand. He’s from the north of Sweden. I think it’s coming out in a translation pretty soon. Right now it’s only Swedish, but this really spurred my interest because it’s a book. I saw an interview with this guy and he’s a really comic sense that is really interesting. He was like, I don’t like…

movies and books that has a like what do you say in English like a plot, you know, it’s more like this is situations happening to these kids during a summer and Doesn’t have to lead anywhere because it’s just a situation and how I think their language to each other how they talk to each other and how you get into their like little bubble and I love how he uses smells

to produce, to make a feeling, know, make you feel something. It’s really, it’s very much show don’t tell. So that’s great. I would really recommend him. I’m actually reading it in Spanish author right now called Irene Solá, prize winner in Europe. It takes place in Catalonia, somewhere, no, in the Pyrenees, somewhere in north of Spain. I read half of it now. It’s really poetic. It’s really cool. Also, that’s interesting because she changes perspective from

Anders Kjellberg (19:11.502)
people and to animals to sometimes the mountains speaking, sometimes the clouds speaking and then you don’t get it from the beginning. Sometimes a deer speaking. So I like the change of perspective. It was really inspiring. So yeah, that’s two books I could recommend.

Absolutely. Interesting stuff for sure. And there’s, I know this question sometimes hits, you know, hits some spark, but what would you say is your superpower? That thing that you do at least better than most other people.

I think I can… wow. That’s a hard question to answer, because yeah… I think I have something that I can talk to. I think I can find a student’s nerve in a way, you know? What drives them? What’s their interest?

I mean, with music, it’s easy because I’m musician and I listen to a lot of big variety of music, so I can always use that. But I I also like old cars and stuff. I think I can find like the way in to get to, and also football, you know, you can find something to get the way in to create some kind of a, you know,

To win the students’ respect in the classroom. I think so. I hope so. I hope that’s my superpower. So if you ask the students, they might say, but no, we don’t understand Jack’s shit with his saying. It’s like, I don’t know. But yeah.

Rob (21:02.86)
Makes sense, makes sense. So Anders, what would you say is your favorite game at this point?

I don’t know, Yahtzee? No, the thing is I’m not playing that much games. I have this history game I really like. I used to play more games before, but I’m not that much of a gamer. We talked about this, me and Zhenya, because I was telling Zhenya, yeah, but you know, Zhenya, I don’t know if I can pull this off. I’m not that much of a gamer. And was like, that’s perfect. I am the gamer. You are the teacher. So…

Well, if I have to say something, I have this board game in Sweden called Vem vet när? Translated it’s like, who knows when. I’m a history teacher. I usually win when I play that game. So that’s why I like it. Even if I don’t win in the game, I like it too. trying to… If the ones I’m… What do you say?

If you play with other history teachers, that’s more of a challenge, of course, because everyone wants to win it. You have to guess when something happened, you have to place it on this timeline. It’s really fast and it’s, you play for like 10 minutes, 15, depends. And then there’s a new session. So yeah, that’s my favorite game.

interesting and it is well you know it’s well grounded on where you’re standing it’s not just a new random game for you it has to do with your background and fits perfectly into into who you are does that make sense? is that fair?

Rob (22:46.35)
So Anders, we’re arriving to the end of the interview. I don’t know if you have any place to take us to. The webpage perhaps of your game. What your work is being done. We can find out more about you perhaps or social media. I don’t know. Where do you want to send us to? And of course if you have any final piece of advice right now is a good time.

Yeah, we have a webpage, thegreatgambit.com. I think if you’re interested you can go in there, you can get it all from there. well, I think that kind of explains it all. Now we didn’t talk that much about the game though, but I mean, if you go into that page you’ll see what it’s all about. It’s a history game. It’s goal is to… I mean…

The goal for the game is to prevent the first World War I from breaking out. That’s like the goal of the game. Hopefully it will teach the students how to avoid making conflicts escalate into people killing each other.

perhaps anything you want to tell us about the game at this point?

Yeah, we are trying to develop it a bit more, make it more of a covering a whole course, four, five, six lessons or something, make a course of it where the reflection parts after each game session have a reflection part and trying to make that more… what do say? Trying to make it…

Anders Kjellberg (24:18.382)
standardized maybe is the word, I’m not sure. Making it work easier to use for teachers.

Amazing, amazing. Thank you very much for that. Thank you for sharing all your knowledge, your experience on creating this game, the stuff that you have done, your recommendations, your ups, your downs. However, Anders and Engagers, as you know, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. Hey, Engagers, and thank you for listening to the Professor Game.

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End of transcription