Rob Alvarez Bucholska
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Failed Game Becomes a Hit — 8 Years Later with Dain Saint | Episode 401

 

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“Sometimes your idea isn’t broken — it’s just not ready yet.” In this immersive episode, Dain joins Rob to explore how interactive storytelling can drive real-world impact, from failed game prototypes that resurrected years later to transforming news stories into joyful community games. Tune in for deep insights on designing for emotion, embracing iteration, and why sometimes a pamphlet beats an app.

dain saint (he/they) is a Philly-based storyteller, designer, and creative director making beautiful immersive experiences. They run Reckless Magic, an interactive storytelling label, and curate Futurefull, an interfuturist storytelling collective.

Rob is a host and consultant at Professor Game as well as an expert, international speaker and advocate for the use of gamification and games-based solutions, especially in community building and education. He’s also a professor and workshop facilitator for the topics of the podcast and LEGO SERIOUS PLAY (LSP) for top higher education institutions that include EFMD, IE Business School and EBS among others in Europe, America and Asia.

 

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Lets’s do stuff together!

Looking forward to reading or hearing from you,

Rob

 

Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Dain Saint (00:00)
I’ve had clients saying like, hey, we wanted you to create an app. And after that initial conversation, it sounds like what you want is a pamphlet.

Rob (00:08)
Hey Engagers and welcome to the Professor Game Podcast and here as you know we interview successful practitioners of games gamification game thinking to help us multiply retention and crush churn. I’m Rob Alvarez, I’m a consultant, I’m a founder of Professor Game and also a professor at places like IU Business School, EBS University, EFMD and many other places around the world and before we dive into the interview as you heard in that quick snippet

Sometimes we need to make sure we really understand what it is that we are aiming for. And that is one of the things that I talk about in some of the free resources I have on our free community. So if you think that could be something useful for you, go down to the description, click on the link below and find us there on our free community. See you there. So Engagers, welcome back to another episode of the Professor Game Podcast. And we have Dain, Dine, how’s that pronounced?

Dain Saint (01:05)
Damn, yeah.

Rob (01:06)
We have Dain with us today. So Dain, we do need to know, are you prepared to engage?

Dain Saint (01:12)
I’m prepared to engage, yes.

Rob (01:14)
Dain is a Philly-based storyteller, designer, and creative director making beautiful immersive experiences. They run Reckless Magic, an interactive storytelling label, and curate Futureful, an inter-futurist storytelling collective. Lots of interesting stuff in a very short and brief bio, which I love by the way, Dain, so thanks for that. Is there anything that we’re missing though from all this stuff that you’re

Dain Saint (01:41)
I I’m always probably working on too many things, so I think that’s a good place to start.

Rob (01:47)
Fantastic. Fantastic. So you said too many things happening at the same time. If we were around you for a day or a week, I don’t know, what would that look like? What are the kinds of things that are happening in your, in your, in your days or weeks?

Dain Saint (02:00)
Right now, think we’re at the beginning of June, we are in the process of ramping up this massive theatrical TTRPG called Space Opera. So that is something where we get over 40 players into a room, we split them off into sort of spacefaring societies and they work together to solve problems on a galactic scale. And right now we’re in rehearsals for that.

During the day, I’m doing my client work, consulting with nonprofits and things like that about how they can bring interactive storytelling into their practice. And then in the evening, we are writing music, are GMing, we are creating iconography, set design. right. Yeah, I’m one of the two game masters on the project. And we kind of co-DMA because when you have over 40 players at a time, it’s kind of too much for one person. So we tag team that.

Rob (02:40)
I’m in game mastering, I guess.

Dain Saint (02:53)
And yes, a lot of iteration and creation. So that’ll split me between, you know, my home studio where I do some music production, game design and consulting, and then kind of bopping off to wherever in the city we need to be in order to sort of bring these experiences to life.

Rob (03:10)
Lots of exciting stuff going on. And Dain, from all that stuff that is constantly going on, all your experience that you have, I’m sure you’ve had the ups, you’ve had the downs. I’d like to focus on one of those that you would perhaps call the fail or a first attempt at learning. We want to be there with you. We want to see like what happened, you know, how did you come out of it? What would be some lessons? We want to live that story as much as you, well, and you’re a storyteller. So that’s not something I have to tell you, right?

Dain Saint (03:36)
Yeah. ⁓ I’ll say so before sort of my current iteration, I ran a game studio called Cypher Prime. We made a bunch of indie games back during like that first indie game boom that happened in like the early 2010s. And we didn’t originally start off as a game studio. We started off as like an interactive design company and kind of stumbled into games. made a game to show off what we could do because we needed that portfolio piece.

and people loved it so much. were like, hey, what if we just kept doing this forever? And that was a lot of fun. But I think around our second or third game, we had this idea for a game called Tailwind. The idea would be that you would be like a little ship in a Kashmup, like a shoot-em-up kind of game where like Galaga, that’s situation. But we wanted something where rather than shooting things forward, you would have

this flame out the back that you could almost use like a whip and really play with this feeling of exploration and agility. And we worked on that idea for, I want to say five, six, seven months and nothing worked. Every felt bad. We tried an open map that felt bad. We tried doing the vertical thing, like an old arcade cabinet that felt bad. Enemies felt bad. All the movement felt bad. But there was something about this, this idea of a tailwind that felt really

good. And eventually we ended up shelving it. was, it was a couple of hard months. It took a break, came back to it a couple more hard months. We poured a lot of time, effort and dev and manpower into this thing and it just didn’t work. So we, we put it to the side and said like, okay, maybe that’s just not something that will ever, you know, sort of come to light. And then about like eight years later, we got an offer to produce a game for the Humble Bundle folks and

we started working on a completely different shmup idea, not using the same mechanics, but just like, let’s just do, we wanna do a little bullet hell situation, a little bit of Icaruga situation. And about two weeks into that process, but my business partner at the time and I looked at each other and was like, this is tailwind. This is the thing that we had wanted to make eight years ago. So yeah, I think sometimes failure is temporary. ⁓

an idea might not be ready yet. That was our second attempt at making a commercial product. We probably just didn’t have the skill at the time to pull off what we were trying to do. We hadn’t had the experiences. We hadn’t really jelled as a team yet. There’s a million reasons why it could have failed, but I think it just comes down to sometimes an idea comes when the time comes. It’s ready when the time comes. And when we did actually release…

that sort of tease of Tailwind eight years after the original idea, it was pretty well received. Yeah, I think sometimes failure is temporary.

Rob (06:34)
I was going to ask about that because I mean, clearly it’s, you know, it just happened and then it came back. It could have been the case. It could also have been the case that it never came back. Right. Like, you know, it’s just, it’s just part of, part of the system. Is there something that you’d have done differently? Like, of course not when it actually did work, but the eight years before when you started it, would you have spent less time on it spent or tried to push forward or I don’t know, like just looking back, of course, you know, in hindsight, everything’s easier.

you know, now that you have that hindsight, is there something that you would have changed or something that gives you to look into the future? Like, now I approach things.

Dain Saint (07:10)
this. Honestly, I can’t think of something that we would have done differently at the beginning that wouldn’t have made the eight years in between necessary. I felt like there was there was something necessary in us. Like we put out our first game, it happened to be a pretty big success. It happened to enable us to sort of move out of doing client work and got us a lot of attention. And we were suddenly we’re going to like

game developer conferences and giving talks and like we had never really done it before. And so when you have an early success like that, it can be really easy to set your own expectations for your next project way too high. And I think that it was a necessary part of our growth as artists, as creators and as business people also to learn, hey, we can take a swing and miss.

and it won’t kill us. Like I think that was actually the really important thing for us to learn. Like, we actually have room to fail here. It’s okay. This isn’t going to work out. Let’s move on to a new idea. Let’s further some of these other business relationships, deepen our practice.

Rob (08:28)
And that’s fine.

Dain Saint (08:29)
And that’s fine. It’s okay. It’s not like the end of the world that our second game out the gate didn’t immediately have the same success as our extremely lucky first.

Rob (08:40)
That is a very, very good takeaway. Success just happens sometimes. And there are, are many things, like there’s many strategies, many things you can try and do to change a part of that. But it all comes down to, you also have to have, make a swing and a miss. That’s, that’s fine. And be comfortable with it. I always like to say when, when I’m in my, my, my, you know, I do workshops and I do that kind of stuff. I always like to tell people like when, especially with your initial ideas.

You want to come in with the intention, not of how you’re going to make this work, but rather what is wrong about my thinking right now. And I’m coming to this testing to figure that out so that I can make it better eventually. And hopefully, again, hopefully make it work. So I can definitely relate to that right now. So then I love that. you know, you, this is kind of a fail, as you were saying, initial fail that turned into a success.

Is there a story of success, something that you created, some purposeful design for something that was beyond entertainment as well, that you created that you’re especially fond of or proud of? We, again, we would like to be in that story with you and live through what happened.

Dain Saint (09:48)
I’ll do a quick one and then we could do something a little juicier if we want. So after I was with Cipher Prime, I was looking for more ways to use that sort of game dev skillset to like help my community a bit more. So I actually transitioned from making games into journalism. So I was working with the paper of record for Philadelphia, the Philadelphia Inquirer for about five years. And I worked there as an interactive journalist. So. Cool.

What that ends up looking like is how do we take the normal storytelling of the news where you’re given facts and figures and charts and diagrams and photos and whatnot. How do we take that and make it something that the reader can interact with, whether that is to get more context or that it is to go more in depth into specific areas or even just to have a deeper appreciation of the topic by being able to kind of.

altered the story on their own, right? The silly version of this was, don’t know, this news probably didn’t reach where you are, but there is a stable in the north of the city that is the Fletcher Street Urban Riding Club. They serve sort of, you know, underprivileged youth and allow them to raise and rear and ride horses through the city. It’s really a wonderful program. And they just gotten a new horse that happened to escape early in the morning and

down one of our major highways trying to get back to wherever it had come from and people caught video of that just wild sight of this massive salient just like charging down I-95. When I got into work that morning I saw it and was like well obviously we have to make a game out of this. ⁓ And it was a weird swing for news because it’s not necessarily communicating more information but we did.

make essentially like an infinite runner with the horse. So you’re going you have to jump over and dodge, you know, construction barriers and get coffee to keep your energy up or your horsepower, I think we called it. But we were also able in that to, like show how far the horse got up 95 before authorities were able to, you know, get it and bring it back. And that was just, it was just fun.

It was a bit of having fun and connection on a local scale that we don’t really get a chance to do in news where everything can sometimes feel very serious and somber and dire and it’s the paper of record. We have to take everything seriously. And I think that there is real power in using joy to connect people to the stories that surround them as much as Gravitas.

And one of the fun things from that was obviously the riding clubs saw this game, saw how much attention it was getting, thought it was fantastic. And they actually reached out to me and I got a chance to ride that horse. And then I wrote an essay about that experience. So it started off as this, this like way of saying to our community, Hey, we see you. And then it turned into the community saying, Hey, we see you as well. So it became this moment of connection and community where

I most people would have just like created the article, say exactly what happened and moved on as if it wasn’t worth commenting on. ⁓ So that felt particularly successful, albeit in a silly way.

Rob (13:27)
Absolutely, and it makes sense. know, had a purpose. was not the game for the game’s sake, right? It probably was a good game as well. Like you could play it and it was fun, but it was also helping you communicate what happened and connecting back to the community. Like it had all these things, all these elements as well that were meaningful, made the game meaningful as well. And as you were mentioning, it had a follow-up and all that. it is, I’m not saying how much money it made because I have no idea if it made money or not. And yet I would say it was a success.

Dain Saint (13:54)
Absolutely. Success isn’t always monetary.

Rob (13:58)
Exactly, So Dain, with all this experience and immersive experiences, immersive, interactive storytelling, game, you know, game studio, all this stuff that you’ve created. If somebody comes in with the kinds of problems that you solve nowadays, how does that happen? Like they come in, they ask you for something, is it client work? Is it you approach them and what happens after? Do you have a process? Do you have a series of steps? Do you have like, how does that actually work? How do you solve the problems you want to solve with your interactive immersive?

storytelling.

Dain Saint (14:29)
Yeah, I think that one of the lessons we took from that tailwind experience is that you have to trust the experience to tell you what it wants to be. Right? And so what that can end up looking like in my client work is oftentimes people will come to me to say, we have a story that we want to tell. We have information that we need to give. And that might look like a museum exhibit.

for instance, that might look like an online platform that might look like some mapping tools to see what’s happening in an area. And people will usually come in hot being like, we need an app that does this, or we need a game that does this, or we need an exhibit that does that. And I try and slow down there. like, is that what you need? Is the shape of the thing that you’re saying? right? Yeah, slow your horse. Yeah. Tell me the story you’re trying to tell.

How are you trying to connect with the audience? What emotion do you want them to have? What information should they walk away with? How are they different after having experienced your story than they were at the beginning of it? Let’s start there, right? Because at the end of the day, we don’t tell stories just to hear ourselves talk. We tell stories to connect, right? And we listen to stories. And one of the reasons that Hollywood and TV is a multi-

billion dollar industry is because when we take in a story that resonates with us, the best stories can change us for the better, change how we see the world, change how we see each other. And so we don’t start with that very like empathetic human connection. It’s very easy to just like slap a leaderboard on an app somewhere and call it done, right? ⁓

So that’s the first place to start. It’s like, how do want people to feel? What are they supposed to learn? How are they supposed to change as a result of having experienced this? And then from there, we’ll talk about blue sky, infinite budget, infinite time, know, monkeys on infinite typewriters. What would this look like if you had all of that? And I will offer some of my own experience and ideas. Sometimes a client will come in with strong ideas about what it should look like. And I want to honor that. Sometimes the class will come in and say,

We have a grant and we have to use it and we’re not the people that come up with these ideas, but we have to fulfill these goals. So those conversations come in and then we try to pare it down to what actually fits in their budget and time.

And yeah, and then from there, it’s just a matter of finding what the experience wants to be. Sometimes that looks like an interactive wall people can touch. And if we do that, we go into some prototyping phases. I try to do as much prototyping off the computer as possible. I find that the computer can get in the way of figuring out whether or not your idea even works. And there’s a lot of things you can do with paper prototypes. There’s a lot of things. There’s a lot of things you can do with a deck of cards that will tell you whether or not your idea is working before you invest minute.

one in programming something, right? And yeah, then it goes into your normal stage of iteration, beta testing, like a few more iterations, polishing, making sure that the design, those emotions, inform the design all the way down to like what icons are overusing, what’s the typography gonna be like in this experience? Is there music? What should the music sound like? ⁓ There’s all of these things that go into creating the experience that

enables the game to deliver meaning. So try and break it down into those three steps and they’re all in conversation with each other.

Rob (18:08)
Amazing amazing. Love it. Love it because it breaks down all the all those things the way you started it reminds me a little bit I like that you have like sort of different things that you have there I I tend to use something that I that I took from from lean manufacturing. It’s not going to do it is Toyota talks about the five whys you ask why oh you would you want to create a game but why do you want to create a game? Right? Oh, I want to create a game because I want to people have I am but why do you want to do that? Just ask why?

Their theory says five times doesn’t have to be five, doesn’t have to be four, three, that can be 10, right? Until you actually get to that meaningful thing as you were saying before. So I definitely love that.

Dain Saint (18:46)
I’ve clients come in with pretty good sized budgets and saying like, hey, we wanted you to create an app to do this, that and the third. And after that initial conversation, it’s like, it sounds like what you want is a pamphlet and you can get a pamphlet real cheap. You don’t need to spend all this money to just give people five bullet points of information. Just print a pamphlet and be done with it. Like that’s fine. So yeah, I’ll never take a client’s money for a project if I feel like they can.

answer their why in a much more accessible way.

Rob (19:19)
That makes a lot. So Dain, in your experience with your work, is there something that you would say is again, not a silver bullet, but something that you say, well, if you use this in your project to create those, to achieve that, why to use that interactive immersive storytelling, it would at least help you and your project will do a lot better if you think about it this way, or if you do this or if you do that, is there something like that a best practice? Let’s say.

Dain Saint (19:49)
Yeah, Silver Bull- I’m not a big Silver Bullet guy. Exactly. if I had to pick one thing it would be…

presence. I think that is the thing that comes before empathy, that comes before understanding. There’s this great saying that I think comes out of some ⁓ therapy circles that I’ve heard, which is be where your feet are. I think especially interact designers, can get a little galaxy brain and just like thinking about like all of the different things that could exist or might exist, all of the different ways that like, what if this person comes in? What if that person comes in? What if they hit this

interaction a minute earlier than we were expecting and we’re in our heads. And so when I find that I am in the middle of producing an experience and I’m feeling lost or I don’t know what to do next, or I feel like there’s so many things to do next that I don’t know which of these things is actually important to work on, taking a moment to become present, both in like a roach kind of like

mindfulness sense, but also being present with the experience and kind of letting go of everything that I think that it should be and being present with what it is. Um, that is always my, my sort of go-to for understanding. Oh, I’m, I’m gilding the Lily. This doesn’t need any more work in this part, but I have forgotten completely to manage this part of a transition or I’ve, you know,

the fonts are beautiful, but the colors are completely inconsistent. Or the design is great, the fonts and the colors are fantastic here, but I’m just now realizing that this text wants to have narration. Those kinds of things come where I’m like taking a minute, taking a lap, going outside, walking around the block and coming back to it with some fresh eyes and just engaging with the product as it actually is and not.

what you said in the RFP, not what you said in the blueprints or the idea of what you think it might be in the future. Coming back, being present, reconnecting with that why, reconnecting with that empathy, and then figuring out what is the next biggest piece that I can work on that will move this experience closer to the vision that we have.

Rob (22:17)
Good stuff.

Dain Saint (22:18)
That’s

hard. Let me be clear about that. It’s a simple thing saying be present. It’s not easy. It’s a very difficult thing to do. ⁓ Yeah. yeah. I find anybody that gives you ⁓ advice that starts with the word just ⁓ isn’t being super kind. It’s very easy to say, ⁓ just do this. You’re not the one doing it. There’s no just about it. ⁓

Rob (22:28)
It’s an easy statement.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So keeping up with those recommendations, those justs, right? there somebody that makes you curious? Like hearing the questions that we’ve asked, the interactions we’ve had, somebody you would like to hear as a featured guest on the podcast, somebody maybe that inspired you, somebody you’ve never met, somebody who’s not even alive, I don’t know, nowadays with these chat GPTs and that stuff, maybe you can create an interview out of the buddy or work of somebody who’s not here.

Dain Saint (23:15)
Yes, I need to look up how to pronounce their last name, but they are a game designer that works with some of the crew from Dimension 20 and the World’s Beyond Number. Mazy Veselak is their name. They are a game designer. create, they’ve created custom modules, custom classes for Dungeons and Dragons. And in seeing some of Mazy’s work,

They are so good at taking an emotion that a player should feel and turning that into systems that enable that emotion. You know, they’ve created a custom witch class for Dungeons and Dragons that allows a player to step into this feeling of being connected to craft and community, but still enables all of the…

traditional like Hollywood and game and story witches that we’ve grown up with. And it’s such a delicate balancing act to with just words, right? Just words and systems, no programming, none of that to perfectly capture a vibe, to perfectly capture a system that enables a type of play and to give that to players in a way that everything mechanically makes sense. All the systems reinforce who you are supposed to be acting as.

And it is incredibly accessible. And I Maisie did this, you know, in concert with the people that were on the podcast and, very like, we know we don’t ever create anything alone, but that their insight onto how to create these game playing systems. I would really love to see.

Rob (24:56)
Amazing. Amazing. You’ll have to give me some tips on how to write it so I can look them up for sure. How about a book? there, is there any book that you recommend people hearing the podcast? Remember, like people are trying to like you to create meaningful experiences, you know, things that have a purpose, you know, it goes beyond, beyond the, obviously visible.

Dain Saint (25:16)
Yeah, there’s a couple books. There is immersive storytelling for real and imagined worlds. That one is really good practical advice. That’s Margaret Kerrison who wrote that. They’re a former Imagineer at Disney, worked on a lot of Disney World type Epcot type projects. And they have very good.

Yeah, just very good insight into the nuts and bolts of how to create good immersive experiences. ⁓ I would also always recommend everybody read Emergent Strategy by Adrienne Marie Brown. This one isn’t an interactive storytelling book. This is a lot more on being an effective organizer and for making change in our world. But a lot of

the point that she makes in drawing inspiration from the natural world, how people connect and really there’s a truly profound power that storytellers have to change the shape of the story that we all live in. And I don’t think a lot of people really tap into that power, not even as a superpower sense, but more as a

responsibility. It’s one of the things that I found when I was working in journalism was seeing in the transition from a story leaving an interviewees mouth being processed through the journalist and the writer, then going through the editor who creates the headlines and cuts this, that, and the third, then its placement on the front page, the things that are considered to be front page news versus not. There are so many

hands affecting how the experience of that story is actually delivered. And I don’t think that we understand or appreciate how much responsibility there is in ⁓ the way that we tell stories and in the way that we enable people to tell their own stories. And I think that Adrienne Marie Brown’s book is very good at

touching on a lot of those parts of it, like the parts where stories that we tell and the experiences that we create enable real change in the world that we live in.

Rob (27:35)
They sound like very very powerful books that is for sure. So Dain, keeping up with those recommendations now looking at yourself. What would you say is your superpower? That thing that you do at least better than most other people.

Dain Saint (27:50)
of my superpower.

I think that I am good at hearing messy thoughts and crystallizing them, making them more focused, creating a brand statement for instance, or a mission statement out of 17 people’s sort of different feels and vibes and desires. So yeah, really simplifying and clarifying.

and creating this focused lens that we can then use as a touchstone for the rest of the project. And on the flip side of that, I think I’m good at taking ideas that are very, that come with that clarity and say, we want to create an experience that does X. And then taking that and expanding it out into like, well, that could look like a million different things. That can look like 15,000 different things.

Let’s go through all those and see which one of them then feel good. so yeah, condensing and refining messy ideas and complicating simple ones feels like, I don’t know, the two halves of my brain constantly bickering.

Rob (29:09)
They sound like it’s a single thing at the same time that it’s two things, but they complement each other so directly that it does definitely, I agree that it sounds like it feels like it’s definitely a one big superpower, especially in your world and the kind of work that you do. I think it makes sense and it’s very, very useful as well. And now we get to the difficult one, Dain. What would you say is your favorite game?

Dain Saint (29:33)
favorite game of…

I don’t know how to answer that. There’s so many different kinds of games. It’s like, like saying like, what’s your favorite games? Like what’s your favorite word? It really depends on, on what you are in the mood for, what I’m in the mood for. I love Hades. think that was a really well-designed action experience. And the way that story is delivered through Hades is mind boggling. There’s so much dialogue, much recorded audio, and it always feels accurate. So that’s, that’s a beautiful experience.

There’s a TTRPG, a role-playing game called Roll for Shoes that I’ve really fallen in love with that is a six-rule RPG and I think the best thing about it is that everybody starts with one ability called Do Anything and you can roll one die about it and whenever you roll all sixes you get a new ability at a higher level.

that is so you can go from like do anything one to like kick doors two or something like that. And what I love about it is it enables a lot of times when you wanna play a game like that with people, there’s like hours of prep. You gotta figure out what your character sheet looks like, what stats are you pulling, what’s your backstory, all this kind of stuff. With a game like this, you really can just like sit down with people, start telling a story, and as people roll the dice and gain these abilities,

additional abilities, you discover who your characters are as you play. And it makes it very accessible and a lot of fun and very silly. So I’ve really fallen in love with Roll for Shoes as a system. ⁓ And then, I don’t know, Tag? Tag’s a great game. Very simple. ⁓ Just to be able to run around in your field and find joy in moving your body and…

kind of evasion. I feel like those really simple experiences, those really like childlike playground experiences of what a game is where…

It’s almost not clear where the game begins and ends. know, a game attack can just end because you’re tired and you just, you know, walk off, maybe get some water, cool off. And then all of a sudden your body, body taps you on the shoulders. This you’re in and runs off and it’s like, we’re back in the game. Right. That to me really exemplifies how much of a part of our, our lives and how much of a part of like just human nature it is to just play. ⁓

So yeah, I love tag in that way and football, soccer in that way as well. You don’t need a lot for it. can just be two people on a ball and you’re kicking around. So yeah, I love those experiences that feel really easy to get into and really invite people to remember what playing as a child felt like.

Rob (32:36)
Love it. Very, very good stuff. Very relatable for sure as well. So Dain, we are running out of time. So before we take off, we would like to know where we can find out more about you, your work, what you’re doing before we actually say it’s game over.

Dain Saint (32:53)
So yeah, well everything is on my website. That is danesaint.com, D-A-I-N. From there you can find more information about Reckless Magic, which is the service that I provide for institutions that want to create these experiences. You can also find out more information about Futurful, which is the community that I’m now curating as I’m finding more and more marginalized creators that want to step into interactive.

storytelling but don’t necessarily have a community in which to do that. But yeah, danesaint.com has everything. Newsletters there, link to my Instagram if you’d rather follow me there. I’m trying to get off of the social media stuff right now because it feels bad. It feels like a bad, it feels like a poorly designed game, honestly. So I’m trying to step away from that, but I also do try to beat people where they are. So there’s that tension to deal with.

But yeah, danesaint.com.

Rob (33:51)
Love it! a great one looking at all those places with Dain. Connect with him wherever you feel is best, Engagers. However, Dain and Engagers, as you know, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. Hey, Engagers, and thank you for listening to the Professor Game.

podcast and since you’re interested in this world of creating motivation, engagement, loyalty, using game inspired solutions, how about you join us on our free online community at Professor Game on School. You can find the link right below in the description, but the main thing is to click there, join us. It’s a platform called School. It’s for free and you will find plenty of resources there.

We’ll be up to date with everything that we’re doing, any opportunities that we might have for you. And of course, before you go into your next mission, before you click continue, please remember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of Professor Game. See you there.

 

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