Rob Alvarez Bucholska
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Design With Audiences: Mister & Mischief’s Playful Guide to Engagement | Episode 418

 

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From theme parks to zines, Andy & Jeff Crocker reveal how analog thinking powers modern engagement. We explore Infinite Right Answers, designing for collaboration, embracing imperfection over performance, and a field-tested model (confidence + generosity) that boosts motivation, loyalty, and community value.

With roots firmly planted in the worlds of theatre and themed entertainment, Mister & Mischief (a.k.a. Jeff and Andy Crocker) create fun-forward journeys beyond the fourth wall. With an unexpected blend of storytelling and real-world engagement, the husband-and-wife team help foster curiosity and connection through immersive experiences that encourage participants to revisit an opportunity to play pretend. Think of them as your extroverted friends that allow anyone a safe place to step out of their shell and explore in places they’d otherwise never go. Jeff and Andy have created experiences for clients including Universal Studios and Walt Disney Imagineering and their award-winning work has been praised by The New York Times, Broadway World and No Proscenium. They were recently named in Blooloop’s International list of Top 50 Immersive Influencers

Rob Alvarez is Head of Engagement Strategy, Europe at The Octalysis Group (TOG), a leading gamification and behavioral design consultancy. A gamification strategist and TEDx speaker, he founded and hosts Professor Game, the #1 gamification podcast, and has interviewed hundreds of global experts. He designs evidence-based engagement systems that drive motivation, loyalty, and results, and teaches LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® and gamification at top institutions including IE Business School, EFMD, and EBS University across Europe, the Americas, and Asia.

 

Guest Links and Info

 

Lets’s do stuff together!

Looking forward to reading or hearing from you,

Rob

 

Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Andy Crocker (00:00)
are so many wrong answers. Even in an improvisational setting, if you are with another human being in a room, there are 100 % always wrong answers.

Jeff Crocker (00:10)
It doesn’t mean that there isn’t space for right answers and those are still infinite.

Rob (00:16)
So there are many right answers in different situations and we’ll know more about what Andy and Jeff are discussing. as you know, as you know, right now we are in this.

setting, which is the Professor Game Podcast. And here we interview successful practitioners of games, gamification, game thinking, and game-oriented, game-inspired solutions to help us in the process of creating engagement, retention, loyalty, and motivation. I’m Rob. I’m a consultant, a coach, and I’m the founder of Professor Game. I’m also a professor of gamification, game-based solutions at EFMD, IU Business School, EBS University, and many others around the world. And before we dive into the interview,

If you’re struggling with retention, if you’re struggling with churn loyalty in your business and you are looking for ways to make sure you keep those users or those players, you definitely will find our free resources useful. Click on the description and get them right away. Engagers, welcome back to another episode of the Professor Game Podcast. We have a couple of repeat guests this time, not just one, but two repeat guests and a single

episode so they were one of the few and very selected of those who will come in couples to an episode and now they’re coming once again so Mr. and Ms. Jif, are you prepared to engage?

Jeff Crocker (01:38)
Absolutely.

Andy Crocker (01:38)
Born Ready.

Rob (01:40)
Jeff and Andy Crocker, welcome back. a pleasure to have you.

Jeff Crocker (01:46)
Thanks for having us back.

Rob (01:48)
So Engagers, if you want the full, you know, original interview with all the questions we, know, we always make, you can definitely find that, you know, in the description of this episode. For sure, it’ll be linked there. We talk about some of the failures, mistakes, lessons learned, favorite games and all sorts of jazz. But today we’re going to talk about something slightly different. We’re here today to talk about the, let me see if I get this right, because to be honest, it was the first time I heard…

We’re talking about a zine.

Jeff Crocker (02:20)
See ya!

Rob (02:21)
⁓ Zine, so it’s kind of a magazine, but not a magazine, it’s zine. What’s the difference? Let’s start with that.

Andy Crocker (02:28)
Well.

Jeff Crocker (02:29)
Well, good. That’s a great place to start. ⁓ Well, typically a zine is something like self-published ⁓ and homemade, very much like a DIY ethos. Nice. And distributed. This is like one unit above a zine in that like we’re sort of… There’s no hierarchy. sorry. meant, yeah, we’ve added, we put a little bit more.

Andy Crocker (02:47)
mean, not, there’s no hierarchy.

say is it’s like there sometimes a zine is as simple as like a piece of paper that’s folded and stapled and hand photocopied. Sometimes a zine is closer to a comic collection. There’s infinite a bajillion ways you can make a zine. This one is somewhere between a zine and a book. but it is self-published. It does have a lot of the ⁓

Jeff Crocker (03:17)
Sure. ⁓

Andy Crocker (03:24)
Creative spirit of a zine of we’re gonna make it ourselves. It’s not under a publisher. It’s just Folks that have something to say they want to share it with people So there’s a long history of zines

Jeff Crocker (03:35)
Yeah.

Rob (03:38)
Okay. Okay. The long history for sure. Interesting. So you’ve both worked on, you know, immersive productions, even with giants, you know, Disney, Universal, and now you make a zine. Tiny, potentially analog, but not this time. Well, is it analog this time? ⁓

Andy Crocker (03:55)
It is completely analog and we’re not doing digital distribution at this time.

Rob (04:00)
So tiny analog lo-fi format, right, next, move. How does that come together for you?

Andy Crocker (04:08)
We talk a lot about, we have a lot of like, people ask us like how we make what we make and they have a lot of questions about it because traditionally what we make is experiential. By design it’s like you have to be there in person and to explain it takes a lot of words and we ⁓ felt like we were at this crossroads of either you become a thought leader and tour around and nonstop and like write a book about how you make the thing.

Or because we’re parents and we’re busy people, you make the thing and we keep choosing to make the thing versus to talk about making the thing, except with lovely humans like you. And ⁓ so we didn’t have time to make a book or go on a book signing tour, but we did have time to put our thoughts down in a creative way, put our fingerprints on our theories and share them with as many people as possible. Jeff, would you agree with this?

Jeff Crocker (05:05)
Yeah,

I that’s- is awkward if you don’t. That is exactly what the intent was. And the intent to make it sort of analog was sort of, again, that sort of self-publishing ethos of like wanting to be the ones that got to do it, take a lot of care in it, and have something that people could hold because that is still experiential. Like getting something, finding a place to sit down, a coffee shop, your bedroom, park.

you know, a street corner and read something is still an experience.

Andy Crocker (05:36)
I think that having it be something that you can hold that has texture that you could write in was the closest, also the closest way that we could talk about how we do in the way that we do it, which is often analog, textured, and IRL, if you will.

Rob (05:55)
Did you have to unlearn something to work on this from your, know, bigger projects that you’ve and stuff that you’ve done to get to something like this? I don’t know if that’s left field question. know.

Jeff Crocker (06:03)
UN-

It’s a great question. think, ⁓ I feel like the answer is yes-ish. There’s the yes and no of definitely putting thoughts of how you convey ideas in a sequential format. ⁓ This required a slightly different approach and understanding to how that’s done. We know we are very comfortable and capable of doing it.

in person lots of people all at once or in person small amount of people all at once and having an environment and having other parts and pieces attached to that, whether it’s scenery in a setting, whether it’s actors and characters. But this was everything right in front of you on a page that has to be printed out. I think required. Yeah, that’s a great question, Rob. I don’t know about unlearning, but definitely changing how we approached

presenting our thoughts.

Andy Crocker (07:08)
Yeah, I think I would also say like, ⁓ are very used to, and this is sort of what the, the mini-festo as we’re calling it is about, is that like,

In our work when you’re in real life with someone when you’re in conversation, you know this because you have conversations all the time. Usually, yeah. Is that like, it’s the taking turns, it’s the passing back and forth, it’s the active listening, it’s a very fluid and there’s space to pivot or adjust as you go. But this is like, well, it’s printed. It’s written. now it’s in someone’s hand. It’s like one baton pass as opposed to we’re used to

multiple baton passes throughout an experience. This is one baton pass. We made a thing and we give it to you and then goodbye. We hope you enjoy. That is a part of our brain. We don’t work as often.

Rob (08:08)
Makes sense, makes sense. So then, you know, I’m not sure if I already mentioned it, but the name of the zine is infinite right answers. And it reminds me always of the infinite game. It’s in fact, a book from a friend, which is called infinite games or something along those lines. ⁓ it’s it’s bold, right? Infinite right answers. know, what’s, what does that come to? Like maybe, you know, is it a hard truth for you guys? You, you ever questioned this? Like what, what does that?

What does infinite answers, infinite right answers for you look like?

Andy Crocker (08:40)
Well, the origin of it, I think, came from maybe a pathological and probably unnecessarily strong feeling I have about scavenger hunts. Because we’ve worked with museums in the past and stuff, and people often want to scavenger hunt. And there’s something about it, they serve a great purpose. But there are certain kinds of scavenger hunts that are like…

go find this sticker in 12 places in the venue. And I have like this visceral, and I was trying to describe why I didn’t like that style of interaction, a seek and find. Like why I don’t, and I think we were having this conversation and I was like, I don’t like the fact that.

You’re like, you either found the sticker or you did not find it. That was very binary. This is where it started from, but then it morphed into something else. Do you know where I’m going with this? I was to pass the baton, but no, I’m still holding it. And this was paired with ⁓ another visceral, probably over emotional reaction, which is like the hatred of like no wrong answers. Yes. Like everybody like just.

Just like throw something out. It’s fine. No wrong answers. There are so many wrong answers in any, even in an improvisational setting. If you are with another human being in a room, there are so, there are 100 % always wrong answers. Being racist, hurting somebody, breaking a thing, ⁓ causing harm to a community, causing harm to a piece of art. Like those are wrong. Don’t do it.

So I think the combination of like feelings around scavenger hunts and feelings around no wrong answers guys then we were like well what do we like?

Jeff Crocker (10:41)
Right, it doesn’t mean that there isn’t space for right answers and those are still infinite. There’s still an infinite amount of right answers, even though there are wrong answers in a sort of open experience.

Andy Crocker (10:55)
Yeah, yeah, it became like sort of a philosophy, a design philosophy, which was like, can we design for infinite right answers while protecting things like both, you know, big C consent, but also like artistic consent and, and protecting the creative vision. So yeah, can you design for infinite right answers knowing that there will always be wrong answers?

became one of the threads of like everything we do. Yeah.

Jeff Crocker (11:28)
And I think as you noted, Rob, it makes a bold title.

Rob (11:34)
Makes it even better. Yeah. Good stuff. Good stuff. I like it. I like it. You’ve also, you know, from our chats before and the interactions we’ve had, you like to talk that you, you about creating with audiences rather than what most people tend to talk about, which is designing for audiences. What’s, what’s the small shift that a creator or a teacher can make, you know, this week or in their next session to start creating with?

rather than creating four.

Jeff Crocker (12:07)
That’s a great question.

Andy Crocker (12:09)
I

think it’s sort of that idea of the baton pass too, which is like, if you can find it in yourself, like how early can I pass this baton and how much can I trust them to pass it back to me? ⁓ a great like, if you think about it like a workout, like a great exercise would be like, how early in this interaction that I’m having with someone can I pass this baton? She said realizing she’s been talking way too much.

Jeff Crocker (12:36)
I think that’s exactly right, which is how early can you engage with an audience and make sure that they have a little bit of that ownership? You sort of get an understanding. think the kids call it a vibe check. Know sort of where they’re coming from, even though as sort of the facilitator or creator, you know where you want to be going, either in a hard…

a story world of like, this is a story I’m telling, there is an end I need to get to, or more of an open world, like, I can’t wait for us to all create this ending together. ⁓ The best example I can use is ⁓ tabletop role-playing games, ⁓ in that there are plenty of opportunities where you’re like, this is a story, we’re gonna live through this story, but there, I need you to slay this monster, this creature or something.

Versus the possibility of like I wonder what these people want to do Do they want to go slay creatures and monsters and dragons or do they just want to go? Explore and talk to go to taverns and talk. I mean

Andy Crocker (13:46)
Are

you thinking of Sunday’s adventure that we had?

Jeff Crocker (13:51)
We play a role playing game with our daughter and another family and it’s primarily like there’s no combat. Like it is all.

Andy Crocker (13:59)
Your daughter really wants to do combat. yeah. Yeah, there’s some violence.

Jeff Crocker (14:03)
There is some violence, like typically, as I’m usually the one that GMs it. so understanding what sort of the energy that they are always sort of pushing towards is that sort of co-collaboration ⁓ from an early stage of like, all right, now I know what kinds of things they’re always going to be interested in. But it also means when you get to a place where, I don’t know, you have to fight, it makes it all the more impactful for them because this group typically doesn’t want to fight.

Andy Crocker (14:31)
And we did spend several hours ⁓ on a show. We spent a whole day. We just went shopping for magical items. That was the whole day. We didn’t do anything. We just shopped. It was great. I have no money left. I exchanged a lot of gossip for magical items. ⁓ But I was going to say the other thing about with TTRPGs is a great example of there’s so many different styles you can GM with. And some folks are co-creating.

earlier and more often than others. It’s just a style thing and we like a lot of co-creation. ⁓ The other, going back, is like the very first thing that you have to do is decide what are the things that you want to protect? What are the things that you’re like, we’re not going to change this. So I’m not going to pass the baton for you to paint over a painting I’ve already made, for example. So yeah, it’s a style thing. This is a long answer to a short question, but that’s, it was a

Rob (15:28)
Good question.

It all makes sense. And speaking of this, and you know I’m big on talking about failure, right? And I’m not talking about romanticized failure, TEDx talk failure. yeah, I did this and then now I am like the king of the world thanks to that failure. I’m asking about, you know, and you guys I’m sure, I’m not saying you fail often, that’s not what I’m saying, but you know, given the nature of what you guys do, there must be…

So some more difficult points, right? Where, where, you know, things are, as you were describing, they’re going somewhere and somebody wants to paint over the painting. Every, every now and then, of course, within certain restrictions that might actually happen. So I wanted to ask about one of those times when, when it went south and you know, you, you recovered from it, something happened and maybe how you got back from that. And maybe, maybe is there a zine, a zine version of this discussion?

Andy Crocker (16:22)
Actually, I’m sure there’s plenty in the zine of lessons we had to learn because we’re creative partners and married and have a kid. We collaborate on so many things. do have, like constantly. Every day. We do have a lot of shorthand. so getting our shorthand into longhand for another human being to understand, ⁓ I’m trying to think. I feel like there had to be examples where we’re like, this makes perfect sense. And someone was like, what?

Jeff Crocker (16:52)
I think failure, I think, is all the little, I think from an early stage in working together, we knew that like play testing was really important. ⁓ And yet we continue to learn as we play test things, the parts that we’ve missed or haven’t tested or thought to test.

And those always create interesting moments of scrambling to solve something. ⁓ The best example I can use recently since last we talked, ⁓ Andy designed a whole art piece, this experiential art piece for the Los Angeles Public Library. And it’s interactive. You come to the library and you have to check out a special box and it leads you on an experience in this library branch.

It’s really cool. It’s called the Bureau of Nooks and Crannies. Thanks. It is cool. It is cool. ⁓ And ⁓ this is, you know, this is a great example. We built these, some of these boxes and we tested them with our friends and colleagues. And still ⁓ we told people, great, you’re going to have to do this one interaction. And when it finally got installed in place inside the library, people were astonishingly

overly gentle with it. They were so respectful of the library environment that they were not moving at a pace that we expected them to. We thought it’d be like, it’s a slot. put the thing in the…

Andy Crocker (18:33)
Yeah,

we a part of this is I mean we can spoil this there is a part of it where you It’s the finale. Yeah, where you put a piece of paper into a slot. That’s it. That’s all you have to do

Jeff Crocker (18:45)
And yeah, there’s a mechanism in there that triggers some magic. my god. god, they’re so gentle.

Andy Crocker (18:48)
triggers the med.

No one will, they just like, they’ll just gently, because people want the library to love them as much as they love the library. And they just want to do right by the library and they want to do, and so.

Jeff Crocker (19:04)
And that’s great, by the way.

Andy Crocker (19:05)
We love it. We love a library. But people’s ⁓ gentleness would actually prevent it from triggering.

Jeff Crocker (19:14)
Yeah, when we were when we were testing it in our house ⁓ We had a bunch of people come in and it was in our house. Great what this is And then when we got to the library we just watched people be so gentle and basically like this as they put things in this slot like it didn’t Trigger the thing that we were trying to do. So we’ve made some adjustments ⁓ that we’ve had to do in person and it’s

Rob (19:22)
but this is we’re not testing it in the library

Jeff Crocker (19:42)
It’s delightful, but it was a weird mistake that we never would, we probably never would have guessed.

Andy Crocker (19:48)
Well, I think, and as we like did paper prototyping, if we saw that behavior happening, but it was so, it’s so alien to us because usually you’re just like in an escape room, you’re like two fingers of pressure only, like, please don’t rip the lamps off the wall to look for a clue. Or like, if you’re in, you know, designing a children’s museum, you have to design it for basically.

Jeff Crocker (20:11)
most powerful force of nature on the planet, which is a middle school field trip.

Andy Crocker (20:15)
Like

everything’s gonna break. So we were shocked when the problem was everyone being gentle.

Rob (20:22)
Interesting, interesting. love that. I love, you know, problems that come out of the blue essentially. You mentioned, know, scribbles on receipts of the zine, diagrams that aren’t polished, absurdity. Like what’s the role of imperfection, right? When inviting people to play instead of perform, right? What’s imperfection look like and what do you suggest people to do in those spaces?

Andy Crocker (20:51)
think it’s really, there’s a couple things. I think it’s really important to lead by example. I think if you come off polished and controlled and perfect, then it’s a lot less easy to engage ⁓ with the piece. ⁓ Stop me if I’m wrong. Don’t stop me. ⁓ No, I mean, think ⁓ let’s use like performance, for example. You wanna make an interactive performance. ⁓

two actors doing a scene, bop-a-da-bop-a-da-bah, very clever, hilarious lines, and then they just turn to the audience and are like, what should we do next? The audience is gonna be like, what? No, you are clearly two actors talking to each other. I am not an actor. I’m just, what is happening? But if we engage and are a little imperfect, a little less slick and a little ⁓ less memorized, more learned, ⁓ it’s much more of ⁓

acceptable invitation for all kinds of learners, all kinds of folks, whereas only a certain kind of person is like excited to interrupt a scripted, slick, know, perfectly timed scene. So that would be the performance version. I think with this, we tried to do the same thing on paper.

Jeff Crocker (22:12)
Yeah, think that’s exactly right. ⁓ I think that’s why the sort of zine mentality spoke to us ⁓ was because it’s purposefully, you know, handmade. is, you know, us trying to get our thoughts together. It’s not fully realized in perfect diagrams. It’s a lot of scribbles and thoughts, but there’s a little bit of everything.

Andy Crocker (22:40)
We wanted it to feel like the way that we talk to each other and the way we joke and our sensibilities and invite people to come along. So pretty early on, we say in the piece, like, now you try. And there’s just like a place for you to interact with the book itself.

Rob (22:58)
I love it. I love it. you know, are there any sort of exceptions to this? Like, was there a part of the zine that, you know, that you almost cut for being either too weird, too rough, or that you were just about to and then said, no, we have to stick to our principles? Did something like this ever happen?

Jeff Crocker (23:15)
I’m sure, but I can’t think of anything else.

Andy Crocker (23:17)
expanded than contracted, but I’m sure there’s something on the cutting room floor.

Jeff Crocker (23:22)
Good question.

Rob (23:23)
I’m

sure we thought… You know, this is too imperfect or you know that kind of… because you were talking exactly for that like we want it to be intentionally imperfect and so on but then of course eventually it’s a zine and you reread it and you go like hmm this needs some rewriting or this this is a bit too far or I don’t know did that happen or were you tempted to do

Andy Crocker (23:44)
ended up at least on the post-it note for later. mean, because I think we very much subscribe to like, nothing gets thrown away, everything is part of compost or ready for the next. We literally have like a bucket of ideas that got cut. So I think some of the things that ended up in the bucket are maybe some things that had more to do with specifically performance or producing or like literally tippy tap writing. think everything in here ended up being

stuff you could leverage for anything, whether you were having a dinner party or making an interactive theater piece, which is basically the same thing. That’s most terrible example. Whether you’re making a cake or making a cake, that was not helpful. I need a better scape.

Jeff Crocker (24:30)
Yeah, I think that’s accurate. ⁓

Rob (24:33)
Amazing.

Andy Crocker (24:33)
of two imperfections.

Jeff Crocker (24:35)
I think it was I think it like like we’ve said like it was it was the challenge was it has been easier and easier for us to talk about our ideas on how to build ⁓ a kernel into an experience, but then putting that into putting that on paper and then like you’re saying Rob like Have it be you could keep reading it and every time you’re like, yes, this makes sense. Yes. I understand this. What was that? All right, I understand this

That was the challenge, is making sure that it was ⁓ understandable for as many people as we hope.

Andy Crocker (25:10)
I think the thing that has the most drafts, because I saved them, because there’s like a stack. So we spent a day talking to ⁓ a friend of ours, Chapman O’Brien, who’s brilliant. If you don’t know him, everyone should. He’s amazing. He was staying at our house and we were at the kitchen table. And I was trying to describe this thing that Jeff and I had a shorthand for. And there is just a stack of papers of absolutely like…

nonsensical infographics that we were trying, like is it a Venn diagram? Is it a flow chart? it like, is it a picture of an atom? Like we were trying like all of this stuff and there’s, still have them, there’s like just a stack of attempts to explain this feeling. And then one of our collaborators, Regan, Shagal,

was the, can I spoil this? Can say that Regan was just like, oh, it’s a bicycle. And we were like, what? Yeah, so it took us, we drew a million versions before Regan took one look at it and was like, oh, you’re talking about a bicycle.

Rob (26:20)
So for those of you not seeing it was literally a bicycle. ⁓

Andy Crocker (26:26)
Yeah, no, wasn’t a Venn diagram. wasn’t a chemist.

Rob (26:30)
It’s not something that looks like a bicycle that you interpret. No, no, it was a bicycle.

Andy Crocker (26:34)
This is literal bicycle.

Jeff Crocker (26:35)
bicycle.

Rob (26:36)
Cool, cool. So if somebody right now flips through infinite right answers and only remembers one idea of everything that’s there a week later, a week or a month later, take whatever time you want, what do you hope that thing could be?

Andy Crocker (26:52)
This is like the newlywed game. Are we gonna pick the same thing?

Jeff Crocker (26:55)
I think so. mean…

Rob (26:57)
That was not my intention, but it could be fun as well.

Jeff Crocker (27:00)
No, I think there’s a lead. think obviously the notion of there are wrong answers, but that doesn’t preclude you from designing for infinite right answers. But I think the thing we hope people remember the most is the bicycle. ⁓ yeah.

Andy Crocker (27:14)
say that too, but I was worried that you’d be like, it’s not the title, it’s the thing.

Jeff Crocker (27:19)
Yeah, because the bicycle represents a concept Andy has talked previously about, ⁓ which are the two key elements to consider when making decisions as you build something, which is.

Andy Crocker (27:34)
confidence

and generosity and the idea is that Oftentimes when people are not feeling confident that is when they are the least generous and When people are the least generous like and you’re just looking at someone being you know ⁓ Unable to collaborate or unable to release control ⁓ That oftentimes you can go like ⁓ no, you’re scared. Okay

And so you can kind of treat both, right? If you practice generosity and you go like, okay, I’m gonna play test this, it’s not ready yet, I can’t control it, these people are gonna experience it and it’s gonna be a hot mess, but I’m gonna force myself to be generous in this moment. And then you get through that, you will be more confident. And then the next time you will be more generous. Or if you’re like, feel like I’m giving too much away, like I just feel like I’m losing the thread and that there seems to people are kind of,

answering these ways that are harmful. Well, you build up your confidence, find out where you need to have more training, control, et cetera, et cetera. ⁓ So confidence and generosity, which is why you can see why we had to draw like a million pictures of it to explain its relationship, ⁓ is at the core of all that. I think it’s the most applicable because it applies when you’re at the beginning of the design process. It applies to when you bring on like,

Jeff Crocker (28:55)
Yeah, applies to everything.

Andy Crocker (28:59)
collaborators. So let’s say you’re a narrative designer and you’re bringing on folks to do the visuals. You have to approach that with confidence and generosity. If you’re controlling everything that the visual designer is working on because you’re scared that the story isn’t solid enough, that’s not going to make for a healthy collaboration. All the way up through rehearsal. If you’re doing a live experience, how you train your actors, you’re training them for confidence and generosity. And then if they do that,

then the people experiencing it will then go on confident and be generous. And then when they’re bringing somebody is it, let’s say it’s a more traditional game. The people, the best people that are explaining how a game is played to somebody else are the people that are confident and generous. I know this game. I love this game. I want you to have this experience. So I’m going to be clear in the way that I’m onboarding you and on and on. And then maybe people are just like,

Jeff Crocker (29:33)
to feel confident.

Andy Crocker (29:58)
nicer pumas and then maybe we save the world. I don’t know.

Rob (30:02)
Beautiful. Beautiful. I love it. I love it. It’s a good way to focus on these things. Jeff Andy, it’s being an absolute pleasure having you here. I don’t know if there’s anything you’d like to highlight before we wrap things up. Anything we haven’t said, anything I haven’t asked. Again, as I said before we started, I didn’t really completely read the magazine or the magazine. Come on, Rob, you can do better. The zine, the zine. did not read the zine.

Andy Crocker (30:30)
The Not-A-Book. You can call it the Not-A-Book.

Rob (30:32)
than not a book.

Jeff Crocker (30:34)
Is there anything else? I don’t know. It’s, hope people, I hope people get one and are ⁓ excited about sort of reading through a approach to a creative process and sort of the elements that we think go into building that confidence and generosity of your own work, whatever that may be, right? From the very beginning, we say, this is not for just like in-person experiences or immersive theater. It is for.

⁓ If you’re making a recipe or a blog does anyone have blogs? It can be for a dinner party. It can be for a band like any of these things like it is it really does speak to what it means to be creative out in the world.

Andy Crocker (31:09)
So many people have vlogs. Vlogs are back, baby.

I agree with everything you said.

Jeff Crocker (31:27)
great.

Rob (31:29)
That sounds absolutely amazing. Guys, where can people find the magazine more about your work, what you’re doing, or if they just want to get into your world deeper, how can they do that?

Jeff Crocker (31:39)
⁓ We are at Mr. and Mischief dot fun www.mr. And mischief dot fun and then typically our social media of choice is Instagram where we are at Mr. And mischief

Andy Crocker (31:52)
Plus we have a newsletter that is both occasional and informational. So everyone should sign up for that ⁓ on our website.

Jeff Crocker (31:59)
on our website.

Rob (32:01)
Amazing, amazing. Thanks again for coming back, for explaining everything about your zine. Not book, not magazine. Amazing, amazing. Have a great rest of your day and Engagers, as you know, at least for now and for today, at least, it is time to say that it’s game over. Hey, Engagers, and thank you for listening to the Professor Game.

I guess and since you’re interested in this world of creating motivation, engagement, loyalty, using game inspired solutions, how about you join us on our free online community at Professor Game on School. You can find the link right below in the description, but the main thing is to click there, join us. It’s a platform called School. It’s for free and you will find plenty of resources there. We’ll be up to date with everything that we’re doing, any opportunities that we might have for you.

And of course, before you go on to your next mission, before you click continue, please remember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of Professor Game. See you there.

 

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