Charney Kaye Brings the Music Into the Mix | Episode 327

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Charney Kaye is a lifelong artist, musician, and hacker, the beneficial type, empathetically building technology to solve problems, and connecting software with media. Professionally, he’s built an arsenal of skills ranging from typography to Java and honed his design thinking over hundreds of projects. Charney is both a seasoned veteran and a contemporary student of human-machine interaction, from R&D to implementation.
He founded XJ Music to enable artists to compose new possibilities in background music for video games, live streaming, and environments.

 

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Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Rob:
Hey, engagers, and welcome back to the Professor Game podcast. We have Charney with us today. But, Charney, before we do this, we need to know, are you prepared to engage?

Charney:
Oh, yeah.

Rob:
Let’s do this. We have Charney K with us today. He’s a lifelong artist, musician, and hacker of the beneficial type who’s empathetically building technology to solve problems in connecting software with media. He has professionally built an arsenal of skills ranging from typography to Java, and honed his design thinking over hundreds of projects. Charney is both a seasoned veteran and a contemporary student of human machine interaction, from R D to implementation.

Rob:
He recently founded XJ Music to enable artists to compose new possibilities and background music for video games, live streaming, and environments. But, Charney, is there anything that we’re missing from that intro that we need to know before we start the interview?

Charney:
No, I think you nailed it. Let’s have a conversation.

Rob:
Let’s do this. So, Charney, what are you doing nowadays? What is a day to day, week to week? I don’t know. Whatever you want to go for.

Rob:
Look like, feel like we want to be there with you and understand. What does it feel like to be you?

Charney:
Totally. Well, I’ll tell you that, especially compared to when I was very young and I first moved out to New York City. I went to film school, and we were living just kind of a much more artistic, very spartan lifestyle. These days, a lot of focus is on stability and some amount of comfort in this capitalist society that we live in here. I live in California, here in the San Francisco Bay area, and so I juggle a couple real jobs.

Charney:
I’ve got a full time day job at a company called Endeavor, which is a pretty large corporation that owns a lot of different events. And I build mobile apps for these events, which, as far as day jobs go, and I’ve had a number of them, I do really enjoy this. It’s really like my coworkers, everyone’s at a really high caliber of creative skill and also product management. Everyone is really at the top of their game, and we just focus on building these products that we put directly in people’s hands so that they can have a good time at these events. And I connect with it and I enjoy it.

Charney:
They don’t ask us to be cult members the way that some tech companies really can. It’s an entertainment company, but just, I think, has a pretty healthy mentality in terms of being a job. I also do some consulting work on the side for Caltech, the client I have there. And that’s on the machine learning side. So when you mentioned, and I put it in my bio, that I’m both a seasoned veteran and a contemporary student, I really try to push myself constantly to be learning new things, even though that can be challenging.

Charney:
So that job has been very cool because I’m working with these PhD students that are totally over my head when it comes to mathematics. But what I’m bringing to the table is just a lot of professional experience as a software developer and helping figure out how this university research type work. And machine learning, which is kind of on the bleeding edge, can also have some of the standards that come from being a seasoned software developer. And that helps with reproducibility of all the results and just making sure that everything the students are working on turns into something with longevity for the lab. So that’s a smaller amount of time.

Charney:
And then XJ music, as you mentioned, is something that I’ve continued to put a lot of time into for a few years now and then. It’s also important to me to stay healthy and put time into just eating, sleeping on a good schedule, getting exercise in, and especially getting time with family and friends and my girlfriend. And so any given day is I’m trying to just not get too buried in any one of those things that I just mentioned, which probably starts for me with sleeping. When I was 19 years old, I legitimately, I think I slept like three or four nights a week, just constantly pushing myself, just. And at different times, just always pushing myself to stay awake, working on different art projects.

Charney:
And I do think that was one of the most critical things for me to establish in my life. And it’s just this daily rhythm of, like, I love the late night hours. I really do. There’s nothing that I personally sort of relish more than just staying up late, working on some art project. But I’ve learned to just go through these checkpoints as the sun is setting and we’re getting into the evening hours, where I start thinking about different things at different times of the day.

Charney:
And mostly importantly, just reminding myself that tomorrow is another day and brings new possibilities and just let myself be excited about that.

Rob:
Totally. That makes a lot of sense. And I think many others will relate to those stories as well. It’s easy to remember, at least for me, you really could push sleeping a lot less. And after a certain age, I’m not going to name many ages specifically, because everybody’s different in many ways, but you start to realize that sleep is actually a thing and there’s things that you could do and that you shouldn’t be doing anymore.

Rob:
Not that you can’t, but know the benefit versus the downside of things is not as good as it used to be. Let’s leave it there.

Charney:
That’s it.

Rob:
Charney, let’s dive into a deep question. We want you to tell us a story about a fail or a first attempt at learning. One of those times when you were going north, things went south, complete, whatever disaster you want to name it. Of course, usually if you’re still here, it means that things somehow got fixed or that you participated in that fixture, especially if it has to do with, you mentioned product design, you mentioned software development, you’ve mentioned that you work with music for video games as well. Something in that realm is usually what we’re typically aiming at because we want to sort of live that story with you, see where it can lead us and what lessons we can take from that.

Charney:
Sure. Yeah. I’ll tell you about a story that happened without naming the company.

Rob:
That’s perfectly fine.

Charney:
Years back, and I spent my early career working in post production for film and doing animation, design and art direction, and then got into advertising, which was really like the biggest game in town, living in New York doing freelance art direction. And over time, I started to realize that’s not what I wanted to be doing. It felt like continually building these almost like Wild west town movie sets that are just facades stood up by planks on the back. And I knew that I wanted to get into more real software development. And I had gone through a series of hackathons and done a lot of self teaching, because while I’ve been hacking and building things with computers since I was a kid, I actually went to film school.

Charney:
And so from a computer science standpoint, I really had to bootstrap that education. And around that time, a guy that I knew approached me and he had raised some money to start an app. And this is a good few years ago, and it’s like a bit of a different climate, but I think this is still very relevant today. And he approached me to be a technical co founder, and I was really excited about it. And this adventure ultimately did span a couple of years.

Charney:
And I think as far as these things go, I was treated really well. But what was interesting for me, and I think that the big learning that it’s incredible how even as I’m telling this story and telling this as a lesson learned, it is still a trap that I can fall into again and again. And essentially he started off with this great idea, which is, okay, we’re going to build this app that helps everybody figure out what their friends are doing tonight. And started kind of at the top with design, hired a designer and got these interesting designs for it built, and just kind of started building it from scratch, starting at the back end with the API, and also brought on a mobile developer at that point because I hadn’t gotten my chops doing native apps yet. And we built the thing, which is really the sort of core of the story, is that we actually took the time to build this functioning app, get it out on App Stores.

Charney:
He put together like a promotional campaign to try and get people interested in it. And partly especially because this was a social networking type app, it’s not something that you could get a lot of value from just the moment that you download it. It depends on other people that are using it, which is an incredible uphill battle for any platform. And the reality is that once we actually got that out into the market, which was after significant amount of the funds that had been raised had been spent and the time that was available had been spent, once we actually got that out in market, we started learning really hard lessons about just essentially the fact that this wasn’t going to work. To sum it up, and I think that the real heart of the story and the thing that I’ve tried to take away from that is to fail faster.

Charney:
That building something, putting in all this time to build a fully fledged product, is a huge risk. And so increasingly, when I’m building things, I’m really thinking about how can the very first, most bare bones version of this out the door, like the version that I prototype in a weekend, how can that be really cool and exciting for people immediately? Because without that, it’s difficult to impossible to get something going. That was one major takeaway from that.

Rob:
And I think this is very applicable for video game developers all the way to gamification designers and creators as well. One of the things that I think could be part of what you went through is really getting a very fast prototype, something on the ground running to see, to really validate if what you’re thinking was actually there, or if what you were thinking maybe makes sense, maybe it doesn’t, but it’s better to figure it out as soon as possible. Does it make sense, what I’m saying here?

Charney:
Yeah, that’s it. And another to sort of get into the gamification aspect a lot, because anything that we were building, even around engagement in advertising, these little apps that are just for brands that are one offs, it still comes down to this fundamental of game design and the core loop. And if you look at the social app that I was describing, there was this very major problem in that the core loop of the engagement with this product had this whole step that involved inviting your friends and then getting them involved and waiting for that to happen. And it turned out that really very few people ever made it through the entire loop of experiencing our product at all. So that would be where I would start with the actual design of it.

Charney:
Ask yourself if you actually have a loop that is so tight that you can put it in somebody’s hands and find out almost right away whether that’s working. I saw a really cool game. I was at Meetup just a couple of days ago here in San Francisco, and this indie developer showed me a game he had made called Fall Ball. You can go download it. And I thought it was extraordinarily simple in that you have this ball that’s falling, you swipe at different speeds to keep it off the bottom of the screen and off the top of the screen, and that’s it.

Charney:
There’s variations from there, it expands from there. But I was really blown away by how tight and precise that core loop was and the fact that I had just received entertainment immediately from it, and I was happy and it was fun immediately.

Rob:
Absolutely. And I think there’s a key there precisely on having something early on that you can test out. That core loop, as you were saying, definitely has to be there and there. And then is the time to validate this, to see if you have something that is worth pursuing or how much you need to pivot. Because sometimes you know that there is something behind it, but you need to make sure that it’s engaging, that it’s entertaining, that it’s getting the people to do the actions you want them to do, et cetera, et cetera.

Rob:
It’s a social network. Talk about that. That’s exactly at the core of all the social and these engagement opportunities that games have and that we’ve learned how to do them well, because games that do well are great at doing.

Charney:
Yeah, and I’ll tell this other brief story that has to do with XJ music in one of our early learnings, which is almost a way that you can do that right and still be killed by your own success. We built this platform for aliatory music, which is a kind of academic term for it. But as we get to talking about that, it’s music that has been composed by people with a deliberate intention of being different every time that you play it back or perform it. And we’ve really tightened our focus on video game music specifically. And we’ve gotten to this place that I’ll talk about.

Charney:
But earlier on I had this idea that we would put out a music player app that you could download on App Stores and listen to our demo music. And with the tools that are available today, I was able to do it really smoothly. It wasn’t an incredible effort, but there were some aspects of it like we’re running HTTP live stream and continuous fabrication of music in the cloud and then you’ve got this app that people are downloading. And we did a good job, I think, on a bit of what I’m describing, where we had these early prototypes, we put them in people’s hands right away, did a lot of focus testing in order to figure out what was and wasn’t working, and got this music player app to a point where people were accepting it, I think psychologically as a potential alternative to YouTube music or Spotify. And that I think was an impressive achievement.

Charney:
We got people downloading this, using it, enjoying it, and what ended up actually killing that product and bringing me to the decision that’s not the direction that we need to go, was just getting the bill from our cloud services. Once we were actually shipping a significant number of these HLS music audio chunks and we got outside of the free tier on Amazon Web services and I just realized, oh man, this model doesn’t scale well at all.

Rob:
There’s a cost to this.

Charney:
Yeah, there’s a real cost to this. And I think that actually coincided with understanding that I was spreading my time and focus too thin across, trying to do too many different things. And so finding the core of it and the product that we have today that we’re trying to appeal to game developers to use in their games is something that’s been tightened up, focused, and we just know exactly what we want people to do with it.

Rob:
That sounds absolutely fantastic and sounds like a great place to be going towards, for sure. And a great experience that you’ve had. And it cuts back. I don’t know if you want to focus on this. We definitely have some time to talk about this as well, about a success where things actually went well, which kind of seems at least partially to be part of the story that you were just giving us right now.

Rob:
But again, whatever you want to focus on, wherever you want to take us, it’s your time. So we’re listening.

Charney:
Yeah, it was a cool moment that I was really proud of there. But it’s interesting you got to think about distribution also. So, for example, at my day job, we have what we call built in distribution, where this parent company owns these different events. And, for example, one of the products that we built was the app for the Barrett Jackson auto auction, which is this big auction that happens here in the US a few times a year. And this is already a popular event.

Charney:
People have been attending this for decades. They’ve tried different apps that just didn’t work out, but that didn’t cause people to stop attending the event. And around the time that I had joined the team and we were bringing together a group of creatives that had a track record of delivering these top notch mobile app experiences. And the first time that we got an app out for a Barrett Jackson event that was in hundreds of thousands of people’s hands, and that is just a result of the fact that those people are already paying attention to that event. There’s this really clear thing that they want.

Charney:
There’s all these cars that are in a convention center. You want to be able to search through the cars, look at car photos. Even while I was building it, I couldn’t stop myself getting lost just looking at all these cool cars. And I do think, actually, the most meaningful feedback we got, the thing that really made me feel like, wow, that is so cool, we nailed it, came from the employees of the auction themselves. People that there’s at least dozens of people that are walking around that are part of the staff of the event, and they have our event now on phones and tablets.

Charney:
And it was the first time that they, doing their job, could look up one of these vehicles, get navigation directions through the event to actually find the vehicle. And we had people that were part of the staff telling us that it literally changed their lives. That experience, again, just the loop is like, I need to find a car, because it’s part of my job right now to go find this car. I look it up, I get gps directions, and there it is. And it was a total game changer for them.

Charney:
So that was an example where everything that we were doing was following this really clear need that people already had. I think when we’re building games from scratch, we are appealing to something that we know we all enjoy, like, we all want to have a good time. I would imagine most people building video games are also enjoyers of video games. If you’re not, it’s probably not for you. So you start with something that you think, all right, well, I’d like to play this, but I really urge people to be incredibly honest with themselves about that, specifically we’re all biased to, like, our own stuff.

Charney:
Anything that I’m in the middle of making, I’m going to be extremely biased to think this is super cool and just be really excited about it. And any way that we can try to turn that mirror around on ourselves and sort of step outside of the fact that I made it and just really ask, like, is this awesome? Do I enjoy it? And I’m obsessed with focus testing for that reason, like finding people that are complete strangers to me and finding ways of putting my product in their hands where I’m not in the room with them and there’s no pressure. I really want people to feel comfortable telling me this sucks if that’s how they feel about it.

Charney:
Yeah.

Rob:
Amazing. I think one of the, at least for me and hearing this and with some of my experience as well, is make sure that what you’re doing is relevant, useful, and especially with the last part that you were mentioning, that has to do with being relevant and useful for the people you’re building it for. And that’s where you get to have a lot of importance of knowing who those people are. And that sounds easy, and it sounds like, oh, yeah, of course, I know the people I’m designing for, but it’s a lot more tricky than we tend to think, and we have to put a lot of focus there to actually be able to do it, as you were suggesting just now. So thanks for all those recommendations, all those ideas, Charney, because I do think that there’s a lot of value to be had there.

Rob:
And Charlie, if you had to give us sort of a, again, I hate to call these things silver bullets or that kind of thing, because that’s definitely not what I’m looking for, what I’m thinking when I say this, but is there something that you would say, well, if you’re thinking in the terms of, as we’ve been discussing, gamification, game design, purposeful games, I don’t know, this whole area, is there a best practice or something? You say, well, do this and at least your project will be a little bit better, if that makes sense.

Charney:
Yeah, it’s kind of like under the umbrella of fail fast, like, just embrace the possibility that it’s not a good idea, that it’s not going to work out, which is very different than always trying to just design things that you’ve researched and you think that this is a good business opportunity. Start with that spark of passion, start with something that you really are excited about, but then push to find out whether people are going to enjoy it as quickly as possible. And I do think that last point that I mentioned about finding people that are not your friends and family, figuring out ways of getting your game or your product into people’s hands that don’t actually know you, I think is really key. And also just getting there. Yeah, it’s key to arriving at that.

Charney:
And also just that time is so critical. I think that’s what I see now at this moment in my life and in my career, that our own time is the most precious thing. And time can be so different under different contexts. So, for example, if you’re just buckling down, you’re like, I’ve just got to build this. The way that time flies when you are just at the grindstone, like learning a new game engine, building out a prototype, it’s unbelievable how much time can pass by in those contexts.

Charney:
Like a ten hour day, a 16 hours day can just fly by. Your whole weekend can be consumed by that. So I think it’s really critical to switch it up. There is going to be moments for any indie game developer, for anybody that’s really putting in the hours as an artist, there’s going to be moments where you have to grind, as it were, but try to keep those moments contained. And like I said, see if you can grind for one evening or maybe one weekend, and then pull it back and figure out how to actually have conversations with people about what you’re doing and get out of the building, get out of your house in any way that you can.

Charney:
Reaching out to people, going to local meetups, just push yourself to connect with other people and just put yourself in front of all the possibilities that exist from. I mean, it’s terrifying, honestly. I think for a lot of us as artists, and it’s much more comfortable to just continue working on this one thing. And it can be really comforting to just think, oh, this is going to be so cool, and just keep putting in the hours and putting in the hours. But unless you’re literally doing it as a personal meditation, if you have any aspiration at all that people out there in the world are going to want the thing that you’re creating, just get into that loop as early as possible.

Rob:
Sounds great. Sounds great. Thank you for that recommendation, Charney. You’ve been on the podcast now for some time. We’ve been discussing all these things.

Rob:
You kind of know the vibe of the podcast at this point. Is there anybody that you could think of? Anybody comes to mind that you say, well, this person would even actually, for me, could be interesting to listen to them answering these questions. A future guest for the professor game podcast.

Charney:
Oh, man. I’d be really curious to just hear from game music composers, which are the people that I’ve been tracking down the most, somebody like Toby Fox or one of these really successful game music composers, and try to understand, because I think it’s a very different have. Some of my closest friends are professional musicians, although my network, I think, is, I’d really like to know more people that are professional game music composers and understand how they go about their jobs.

Rob:
Cool. Good stuff. Good stuff. Thank you for that recommendation. We’ll be looking into that.

Rob:
It’s definitely not our area of expertise, but if anybody comes to mind later, just send us an email.

Charney:
Sure.

Rob:
We’ll be happy to look into that. And speaking of inspiration, is there maybe a book that you could recommend, something that you would say, well, this could be in your library and serve as inspiration, again, straight up game design, gamification design, or anything that sparks your creativity. I don’t know.

Charney:
Wherever you want to go, know what comes to mind for me, and this is just not even necessarily a super helpful book. There’s this incredible book called Godel, Escher, Bach by Douglas Hofstadter, and it’s a book that I have had on my shelf for, I want to say, well over a decade, and I’m still maybe barely halfway through. It’s covered in these little. Not the postits, but the sort of markers with little tabs. And it’s this incredibly dense volume that was weaving this golden braid, as he calls it, between math, which is Godo, and art, Escher and music, Bach.

Charney:
And he did the type layout for the book himself and used a lot of, like, Lewis Carroll inspired themes in order to try and communicate what are the roots of consciousness. And especially in a time now where people are talking about AI and what we really should be talking about are just these generative, pre trained transformers, and things like chat. GPT are not conscious entities. Haas better was really digging into what is consciousness and meaning. And it’s kind of an incredibly beautiful book.

Charney:
I mean, this is, again, not for the faint of heart, but anybody, especially if you’re a software developer, like, if you have any experience kind of building games, it’s incredible, and it’s something that I’ll just take a nibble of, and then it’ll blow my mind, and then I’m just thinking about that and thinking about that. It’s rolling around back there and then. I appreciate these design books, typography and raster system. I apologize that I’m blanking on the names of these authors. These are like design school textbooks.

Charney:
And as I said, I went to film school, and it was other friends of mine that went to graphic design school that put those books on my shelf in order for me to just learn these routes. So, like grid systems design and typography, also envisioning information that’s Edward Tuft is somebody that’s written a lot about that and human centered design in general. Apologize again, naming these authors. Off the top of my head, I’m blanking. And actually, there’s another fantastic book called the Atomic Chef, which is just a series of tales of human error and things going horribly wrong as a result of human error.

Charney:
And I love that one because there’s something for all of us to learn in it. And then, especially if you’re not building nuclear power plants or airplanes, you can relish in the fact that you get to make mistakes without lots of people dying.

Rob:
One of the reasons I didn’t become a doctor is that one.

Charney:
We can appreciate what these people are doing that is just at a much higher risk level than building games.

Rob:
Totally. Thank you for all of that. And in this realm of creating stuff for video games, including definitely music, what would you say is your superpower? That thing that you do at least better than most other people, not necessarily everyone. It’s not exclusive either, but where’s that thing that you feel you’re great at?

Charney:
I think for me, what I perceive as being my sort of nexus of strength as a creative person is connecting different disciplines. I’ve spent a lot of time as a software developer. I do consider myself a professional, and that’s something that I’ve just really put in the hours in. But I’ve also put in a lot of time in design, in graphic design, and going to the roots of that. Right, typography, also audio production and engineering and film editing and writing.

Charney:
Honestly, writing is, I think, the heart of so much communication. And being a good writer is critical, perhaps even more than ever now. That things like people being able to use Chat GPT to synthesize writing out of other writing, I think just raises the bar on being able to really communicate your point when it comes down to it. I’ve also done voiceover acting and gotten some training doing that, and also just studied real world engineering to some extent building electrical engineering, and then human centered design and understanding user experience and a bit of just human psychology and just kind of what makes us tick in.

Rob:
This massive combination of great skills you have. I don’t know if I want to push you too much on this one, but what would you say is that thing? Is there a keyword or key phrase of Charney is here?

Charney:
I think it’s about human experience. That’s the question that I’m constantly asking myself when I’m brought into any project. And also what is the outcome that we’re trying to achieve and just really understanding before we do anything, like within the first minute of talking about something, I just want to understand how is this going to impact people? Everything else, I think, centers around that. So when I’m pulling in all of these different disciplines and these different skills, I try not to get lost in any one of them and just make the center of it.

Charney:
About creating good times, creating excellence and benefit for some group of.

Rob:
Amazing, amazing. Thank you very much for that. Charney, difficult question. After all this experience you’ve had with games, which one is your favorite game? Whether you’ve participated in it or not, that’s up to you.

Rob:
But which is your favorite game?

Charney:
Totally. I mean, it’s like there’s such a. At some level, I’m always going to say it’s this next game that I’m excited to play. But yeah, I’d say that sort of my background. I’ve been playing games for a really long time.

Charney:
I go back to there’s always the first person games. So I remember being excited about Wolfenstein three D. I was excited when Doom elevated that. I was excited when Quake elevated that. Right?

Charney:
That goes back pretty far. And I also just like, hats off to Grand Theft Auto. Over the years, I think it’s maybe gone into a realm. It’s not as fun to play, I think, since they introduced, like, jet bikes. But there’s something about Rockstar style that’s pretty incredible difficult to put a finger on.

Charney:
And one of my favorite games from last year was Cyberpunk 2077. I’m like replaying that so that I can get into the Phantom Liberty DLC. I think they did an incredible job. I’ve always also been a fan of the Far Cry series. I think that.

Rob:
You’Ve given us a few.

Charney:
Yeah.

Rob:
So is it GTA, which you started with?

Charney:
No, I couldn’t put that as my number one favorite because if I go back to my childhood, the other avenue of play, there’s like two other avenues of play, which was adventure games and real time strategy. So then Secret of Monkey island would probably be like my first favorite game. But then it’s also hard for me to choose between that and day of the Tentacle and Sam and Max. And then you’ve got these real time strategy games like I played Dune back in the day, and I love StarCraft, who still love playing that and still love trying out new games that are coming out or like Homeworld or War game. And then even just recently played one of the newest versions of this adventure game that’s made with the same technology as Monkey Island.

Charney:
I played Shardlite and I thought that was really brilliant. So as you can tell, my answer is like, yeah, I have a hard time picking, but like top, top. Oh, and then there’s mean. It’s really hard for me to pick a thing.

Rob:
I put you down for the secret of Monkey island. We’re leaving it at that.

Charney:
That’s fair for now.

Rob:
Anybody wants more information, there’s a ton of recommended games that you have definitely mentioned, which are all absolutely amazing. And Charney, thank you for investing this time in us, the engagers, this audience who’s always looking to find value in experiences of our fantastic guests. Is there anywhere we can find out more about you, your work, anything else? Anywhere you want to send us? Now is the moment before we take off.

Charney:
Thanks. Yeah, Rob, it’s really been a pleasure speaking with you and anybody out there. Check out xjmusic.com. You can find everything else about me from there. Find me on LinkedIn Charney K or Twitter Charney K.

Charney:
And yeah, you know, I’d love anybody out there that works with game music, especially to check out XJ music. It’s a music engine that we built and an entire desktop audio workstation to design the music for a game and then implement it in the game in a way that you send signals to the API for the music to change dynamically with what’s going on in the game. We’re at a point now where we’re hunting for a deal with a major video game studio and on the road there, if you’re building an indie game, we are happy to not only let you use the engine for free in your game, but we’ll really put in a lot of work to help that be a success. So just check us out and let me know what you think.

Rob:
Amazing. Thank you very much, Charney, for all that. However, Charney and engagers, as you already know, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. Engagers. Thank you for listening to the Professor Game podcast.

Rob:
And if you want more amazing interviews like this one, please go to professorgame.com Slash subscribe and get started on our email list for free. We can be in contact. You’ll be the first to know of our initiatives and opportunities. Everything that we create, it is for you. And remember, before you go on to your next mission, before you click continue, remember to subscribe or follow which is absolutely for free using that podcast app that you love and listen to the next episode of Professor Game.

Rob:
See you there.

End of transcription

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