Rob Alvarez Bucholska
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When Computers Taught You to Create, Not Just Consume with Jesper Juul | Episode 398

 

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What can a 40-year-old machine teach us about loyalty, engagement, and creative freedom? In this episode, Jesper Juul returns to the Professor Game Podcast to talk about his new book Too Much Fun, diving deep into the legacy of the Commodore 64.

From hacking and game development to subculture and hardware design, Jesper unpacks the “five lives” of the C64 and what they reveal about user retention, tinkering, and systems that last. If you’re designing for engagement today, this is a nostalgia-fueled masterclass in getting it right—and where we started getting it wrong.

Jesper Juul is a video game theorist and occasional developer working at the Royal Danish Academy. He has previously taught at MIT and New York University. His books include Half-Real, and recently “Too much Fun” about the Commodore 64, his first computer, on which he wrote games and demos. Here’s his first episode on the podcast: Jesper Juul and Handmade Games

Rob is a host and consultant at Professor Game as well as an expert, international speaker and advocate for the use of gamification and games-based solutions, especially in community building and education. He’s also a professor and workshop facilitator for the topics of the podcast and LEGO SERIOUS PLAY (LSP) for top higher education institutions that include EFMD, IE Business School and EBS among others in Europe, America and Asia.

 

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Looking forward to reading or hearing from you,

Rob

 

Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Jesper Juul (00:00)
produced from 1982 to 1994. It wasn’t upgraded, but people kept using it for many different things.

Rob (00:07)
So Engagers, welcome back to another episode of the Professor Game Podcast. We have a repeat guest today, Jesper. We again need to know, are you prepared to engage?

Jesper Juul (00:18)
I am. And thanks for inviting me back.

Rob (00:22)
Always, always welcome. Great guests like you are always welcome back, especially now that you have your latest book, which we’ll definitely be diving into very, very soon. The Too Much Fun book. If that doesn’t call your attention, I’m not sure what will. Engagers. Jesper, if you want his intro and everything else, you’ll definitely find that in the show notes in the past episode as well. You just type Jesper Juhl. Jesper J-E-S-P-E-R, Juh-U-U-L, with two U’s.

You’ll definitely find that on theprofessorgame.com. But Jesper, very, very quickly, first things first, what is this new Too Much Fun book all about?

Jesper Juul (01:02)
Well, so you could put it a bit like this, right? So I’ve written a lot about kind of video games and video game history. And then in a way, on a kind of personal note, was considering that the games, so the older games I was writing about were actually completely different from the games that I had been playing personally as a teenager in Europe in the 1980s. And I kind of realized that

that perhaps I taken over this sort of bit American slash Japanese version of game history, which is something like there was Atari and then there was a video game crash and then came Nintendo. But that actually when I had played games with myself during that period of time, actually did not have a friend. I did have a friend who had an Atari 2600, but I never heard of anybody who had a Nintendo. Like all game playing where it was basically on

on home computers and especially on the Commodore 64. And so this is a kind of curiosity for me that, well, was it just like my personal experience or what’s actually going on here? And so what I did for the book was just to go back and look at a lot of sources, things like magazines and newspapers and what have you to trying to figure out like whether this was just my personal experience or whether this was actually kind of common. And the answer was that

This was common in Europe. Consoles were not that big a thing before the 1990s really. And European video game culture in the 1980s was very much centered on home computers. And in Northern Europe and Italy especially, just on the Commodore 64 computer. so you might say from a kind video game history perspective, I just wanted to…

So get back and realize what were the bits of game history that we’d forgotten or forgot to talk about. And then even in the US, it’s also pretty clear that remember companies like Electronic Arts and Exhibition, they were making home computer games in the 1980s, including on the Commodore 64. So there was just a lot of history that was very clearly out there, but that we had forgotten. And I feel especially

even in sort of game studies especially, I had forgotten, I didn’t talk about it anymore. And then the other one, the other thing was that when you read kind of these kind of popular computer histories, it’s often kind of reduced to this sort of PC versus Macintosh competition, right? And especially kind of personified in Bill Gates versus Steve Jobs and…

Then think about it, that’s actually not how I recall that period of time either. So I also had to go back and look at things like kind of sales charts and so on and realize, yes, it’s true. This was not like a big thing during the mid 1980s when I was a teenager. So I got a sort of found a catalog from a local computer store from that time who was selling. And they might be, this was like a university computer store.

And so the 1984 catalog had, I think, SEDEX Spectrum, the Commodore 64, the VIC-20, and the TI-994A. So they didn’t actually even, at that point, PCs or Magentoshes at the university computer store. So it was just a realization that there was just like a whole kind of part of computer history that also got a little erased.

And this is also true in the US, if it looks up charts or these kind market surveys from the mid 1980s, it’s actually the Commodore 60, the Commodore was the dominant home computer manufacturer in the US. So there’s that. I think also there’s a computer industry which tends to be kind of forgotten.

Rob (05:12)
And, you know, one of the things that I was seeing when, you know, sort of looking into what you’re doing is that, you know, as I mentioned in the pre-interview chat, I didn’t get to enjoy Commodore 64 in its, you know, in its early days. was unusually long and very varied as a life, you know, different to others. Why did you choose to frame the story in five lives? Like you mentioned some of things that surprised you, but what’s the five lives about?

Jesper Juul (05:42)
So there’s also a bit about like that I wanted to write about this computer right and I talked to Nick Montfort and Ian Bogus before who who edit the platform study series and MIT Press which has lots of interesting books about kind of kind of computer platforms and game platforms and has this whole thing about talking about both about why was a platform designed the way it was and what what is the actual hardware like and

How do people use it afterwards, after it’s been designed, right? And then again, I thought about, what’s my own history here? And then I was thinking about just writing about, say, like my own sort of very kind of intense kind of computer subculture relation to the machine. But then like I talked to many different people and read a lot of magazines and I realized that I think it just was better to kind of realize that even though this machine wasn’t upgraded,

which is a little weird, right? It was produced from 1982 to 1994 and it was like the best selling kind of home computer in the world during that time. It wasn’t upgraded, right? Because Commodore was always hoping that there’d be a newer machine that would be replaced, right? But people kept using it, but then people could just use it for like many, many different things over time. And I thought that was actually the interesting kind of bit was to think about how…

This machine was just thought to be just completely different things during all of those years, even though it didn’t actually change. And so that’s the five lives, both that it actually was produced much longer than anybody had expected, but also that people kind of kept reinventing it in a sense. So the first life, when it just came out and it was being promoted, it was sort of promoted as this kind very serious machine. So it’s like one you could use for education and for business and for learning about computers.

with games as just a kind of little footnote, wasn’t games weren’t prominent in the advertising. And then I think sort of after a few years, it got to be seen as a game machine. And I think that’s probably like the primary reputation it acquired and still has. It was a machine that people would use for playing games and for making games and for typing in games from, from magazines, right? And then the third life is where it became a kind of ticket to a computer underground. So

Well, I personally, and as I talk about in the book, just spent many years, many late nights sort of cracking software, like removing the copy protection from software, which I’ll not. I won’t defend that like morally, but it was great fun and great competition. But then also being part of this kind of demo scene, all of these kind of where we meet up like several hundred kind of kids and

compete in making these kind demos, these kind of programs, which would show music and sound and graphics and new programming tricks. And then the fourth life is then where the platform started to feel old. This is where we get to the late 1980s and early 1990s that if you had a Commodore 64, you were kind of worried that it was getting long in the tooth and there were newer platforms like in…

here especially the Commodore Amiga, but then also like the IBM PC especially, which were becoming sort of like more powerful platforms, right? And so that people tried taking, say making a graphical user interface with a mouse for the Commodore 64. So it would be like the Amiga and the MagnaTorch and Windows, or they tried taking say Amiga hits like Defender of the Crown or Lemmings, and then making Commodore 64 versions of it, right? So there was this kind of…

anxiety during that time, right, about the limitations of the machine. And then the fifth life is like where we’ve been for at least 10 years, right, which is where it’s long time since this machine was produced, right. But now, all of the limitations it has, like it’s a one megahertz processor and the graphics are kind of chunky, the pixels are kind of big. ⁓

Those are now fascinating, right? So people actually sometimes make demos or programs where they like overemphasize these limitations, right? So I think one comparison is a bit like with vinyl, where some people will enjoy the fact that the vinyl crackles, or that it’s physically heavy or something like this, right? That yeah, there’s this kind of switch right now that people enjoy the materiality and the kind of limitations. So that’s a kind of big…

That’s kind of big point of the five lives. And it’s also something where you might say the book also has a chapter where I talk a lot about like how, why the machine was made and like what actually influenced it. Right. So the idea was not just to say like, here’s a machine and it came out and people stopped producing it. Right. But why rather than saying like, well, what are the things that leads up to this machine and what are the things that actually comes after? Like what’s the afterlife?

of this machine long after it ceases to be produced, right? And not just as something that’s kind of obsolete, but something that just has a much more kind of longer life. And I think that was to me what was the interesting thing to try to do here.

Rob (11:05)
It’s, you know, I hear you and I realize that it’s not just nostalgia, right? In computer history, like there’s more to that. It’s a single machine that had a, sort of, as you were saying, many cultural lives. Like it was different from the first and second, third, fourth, fifth. They’re very different, right? Are there, I don’t know, are there any user engagement or expectations that Commodore tapped into that felt?

like again you were at that time and you were one of the users that it felt like fresh that made a difference because of course we can only almost like think about what they did for the time and hypothesize on that but then on the second, third, fourth, fifth live it’s just something that happened right so for that moment was it fresh like what was very different that made people engage more with Commodore 64?

Jesper Juul (11:58)
So

when it came out, was so well, realistically, so I have a few diagrams of kind of computer history in the book. Let’s see if I can actually show this here without it blurring. So it’s one of the things I talk about is that, let’s see, sorry about this. Yeah, so let’s see if it blurs. So it’s basically a way of thinking about

So this is the idea of the Commodore 64 is not just someone gets an amazing idea and makes a computer, right? But it’s more like there’s been lots of computer-like devices. like the 1965 Italian Programmer 101, which is a programmable calculator, but which some people call the first programmable computer, right? They’re typewriters and all these kind of terminals and so on. That leads up to the Commodore 64, right? And later you have other computers, right?

The funny thing is that if you look at this kind of history, you realize that most of the computers were not really designed for making games. So you might say that I think there’s an argument that they wanted to make Pong on the Apple II, but all of the hardware features you might have like sprites moving objects around or scrolling the world, actually kind of rare on early computers. So it’s only really like the Atari.

the Atari 8-bit computers were designed for making games, but like the IBM PC wasn’t, the Magentosh wasn’t. So some of these didn’t even have color in the beginning. So there are kind of relatively few computers early on that were actually designed actively for making games, the same way that you might design an arcade machine for making games. And so that was part of the attraction. And that was the kind of kind of coded advertising that Commodore had to do. ⁓

I write about this and people have been writing about this, that people didn’t really know why you would need a computer in the home in the early 1980s. So what was it really for? And so everybody, think, perhaps kids especially, understood that computers were really good for playing games. It was very hard for parents to justify buying that device so the kid could play games.

And therefore, Commodore was advertising this as something that was either kind of serious, especially very good for kind of helping your child further in the world. And Commodore had these ads that some of the engineers called guilt advertising. these were basically, there’s one called job interviews. So ⁓ a young man goes to a job interview and then he gets rejected because he only played video games. He didn’t know anything about computers. And therefore you should get a Commodore.

64 or big 20, right? And there’s also one where the kid, the parents sent their kid off to college and then the kid immediately comes back because they hadn’t given him a computer so he learn and be prepared for the world, right? And so that was, but at the same time, of course, I think people understood that it was also really good for game playing, but that just kind of wasn’t front-end advertising. But at the same time,

Rob (15:17)
Was that maybe like a little bit of shame? a way like there was shame associated to people playing video games.

Jesper Juul (15:24)
Yeah, mean, of course it seen as a waste of time and I guess it still is to some extent, right? But of course at the same time, like when they were designing the machine and especially the video chip, they were looking at like the designer El Shavanchi who I interviewed. And so the other people at Commodore, they were looking at arcade games and they definitely wanted to have arcade games like on the Commodore 64, right? So the chip was designed with games in mind, but…

That was not really how it was advertised initially. But at the same time, it’s kind of weird back and forth. But then when you open the useless guide, it talks very immediately about that you can program your own arcade games. And that’s one of the cool things about the computer. So you answer there’s several layers of, or even sometimes contradictory communication going on. But definitely the sense that you can’t sell a

devices for playing games or computers for playing games. You have to sell it as something else first. But then I think, know what happens in a few years, it’s just that this idea of this being a game computer just takes over kind of completely, right? And it’s considered, people dismiss it as a kind of game computer, right? But this was also at a time where things like the IBM PC and the Magentouch were way more expensive, but they’re also black and white, right? There was a sense that

a serious computer should probably be black and white and not have any kind of serious things like sound and especially not like kind of action graphics. So also I think it’s important to think like how long time does it take before PCs can actually do something like you could on a Commodore 64 like 1982 or even on the Atari 8 bits in 1979.

The first safe scrolling kind of platform game is usually thought to be like Commander Keen from 1990. So, so it’s kind of actually pretty weird, right? This actually takes almost 10 years for IBM PCs to catch up to these kinds of small much cheaper home computers. And I think it’s pretty clear this was like a deliberate decision from IBM’s part, right? That they didn’t want to have this kind of unserious stuff on their computers, right? Because it just made it harder to sell them.

Yeah, so I think that might say that users understand what a computer is for even if everybody else didn’t want to admit it, that they understood that a computer is in part for playing games.

Rob (17:58)
You know, as you’re saying, the C64 was eventually primarily known for games, right? That’s what it eventually became. And it found a different kind of sort of attraction to people. People’s players spending hours, days, you know, whatever amount of time with it. What do think it is about the platform that created such a deep, you know, play habits and loyalty to the platform in a way?

Jesper Juul (18:22)
Well, I mean, it had a few things, so of course it was much easier. So other platforms at the time, IBM PC, Static Spectrum, like Amstrad here, they were just much, it was kind of hard to move graphics around the screen, right? So remember back in those days, computers were kind of slow, right? So today when you do graphics, basically the computer just behind the scene, just like erases the whole image, draws a new one, pops it in everything.

shows a new image and can easily do that hundreds of times a second. You couldn’t do that at the time, right? So people would have to erase the pixels and then draw them again and sometimes it would flicker. But the Commodore 64 has this thing called sprites. So basically you have these graphical elements that you can move around quite easily. it’s kind of layered graphics in a sense. It’s very close to arcade games at the time. This is very easy to make those kind of games or kind of moving graphics.

And then there’s various other things, those kind of facilities for scrolling the world. And remember, this was not like these super common on home computers. So I write about a game called Son of Blagger. And this is from 1983. And I think it’s probably the first platform game ever that moves and that scrolls in all four directions. So remember like, and also this is prior to Super Mario Brothers. Super Mario Brothers is several years later, even in Japan, right?

and Super Mario Bros. you can only move to the right. But several years before that, there’s a game, or many games, where you can move in all directions in a platform game. But then they actually explain this in great detail in the manual, that it explains, this is how big the world is, but you’re only seeing a small portion of the world at any given time. It’s like a window to that world, because all of that is so kind of new to people. So just think that it’s just…

On a hardware level, it is very clearly designed for making, and we know this for a fact, was deliberately designed for making games and arcade quality games at the time. on some level, it’s just very easy. Another thing I think that made this device super popular was it had a very good sound chip. So this was a bit like very close to these kind of analog synthesizers, like MOOC synthesizers, or things like this from the late 1970s.

So the music was actually really good compared to other devices. And it’s kind of still fun to listen to. It has this kind classic analog synth thing to it. And so I think what often happened when you realize is that a lot of these early games were actually also incredibly hard. And so one way that this worked was just that you often have games which people perhaps in some way don’t like playing, but they love the music.

And so the music often became a way of tying the experience together, right? So that even if you’re just dying over and over and over again, then there’s a wonderful piece of music. So I think that it also kind of helped create a kind of emotional bond to that machine.

Rob (21:37)
Amazing, amazing. like one of the things that you mentioned as well at the start was how you yourself started sort of decoding things and beyond the ethical side of all that. But I think in many ways it’s sort of a masterclass in community driven engagement. It was the community building this over. Do think there’s anything that this can, you know, this kind of engagement, the way they did things, they can teach, you know, tech platforms, online communities today.

can they learn about this creating this subculture that sustains itself over time? It eventually detached from the Commodore 64 itself, like the machine is still there, but the people who created it and took a life of its own. Are there any lessons you think we can take for today’s games community?

Jesper Juul (22:24)
Yeah, it is interesting. So, Ian and some other people talked to, I was interviewing Charpentier, the designer, he had really been following Commodore 64 culture and he was kind of surprised at all the kind of things that people have been doing. Like, it’s way beyond what he envisioned, right? And then you might say, well, what did he feel about the fact that

people had found all these kind of glitches and are making the chip do all the kinds of things that he wasn’t supposed to do. And he was completely fine with it. He was completely accepting of it. He’d done something and it was just, thought he wanted people to do all kinds of crazy stuff with it. And they did, right? So he was fine with it. But the lesson, if there is a lesson then, I think is that what’s also weird about an early device like this is how easy it is to crash it.

So it’s a machine that when you start it, you can program it in the basic programming language. it’s actually very, I mean, it’s actually a lot of, it’s very inviting when you turn it on, right? Because it says ready, and then you can type commands. You can also move the cursor around and draw pictures with these little graphical symbols and change color and so on. And so that’s a lot of fun. You can also type, okay, this is actually pretty fascinating at this time, right? You could type.

say question mark like 10 plus 42 or something and it would be a little kind of calculator for you. So it could do a lot of stuff, right? And you could also do a technical command called poke one comma zero. But if you type that, then the computer just locks up. And then it didn’t have a reset button, so you have to turn it off and turn it on again. And if you use the Commodore 64, there’s a specific movement where you move it down and you move it up. Actually, I’ll probably have to show you.

Rob (24:16)
For those of you who are listening to this, he’s bringing up actually the C64 to show us something. There’s a…

Jesper Juul (24:23)
So

there’s this power button on the side, and get a little bit out of And so then you basically turn it off and on, and then you turn it on. And then you do like, and of course you crash it pretty often, right? So if you, instead of, type poke, poke one comma zero, then the computer crashes. So now turn it on, And this is the thing, of course. And so modern computers don’t do that, right? You’re not supposed to be able to crash your phone or your computer.

And so I think that in a way is a good thing, but it also means that there’s a much narrower idea of what you’re supposed to be using the device for. So that you’re not allowed to, you’re not supposed to interact with the video chip this way. You’re not supposed to do this thing with the sound chip. You’re not supposed to have access to this stuff, this stuff, this stuff. And that just means that the range of what you can actually do with today’s devices is much narrower than it was back in the day.

This also means it’s much harder for you to take your PC device or your phone device and use it in other ways than was intended. And so the flexibility of that time also just comes from the fact that there’s just no limits. If you want to do something that crashes the computer, go ahead. It’s not… It’s just your own problem in a sense. And that in a way gives a lot of freedom.

Rob (25:47)
They

were not giving tech support to people who crashing their computer

Jesper Juul (25:50)
No, no, no, no, no, yeah, that’s true. so, so that gives it a lot of flexibility. and I mean, I’m not sure. I mean, it’s not, it’s not an easy problem to solve. It’s not just like let people crash their phone all the time because people actually don’t want that. Right. But, certainly like in this process of streamlining devices that also, you also lost the ability to, be able to tinker on lots of levels. Right. And also that

A device like the Commodore 64 just starts in programming mode, right? And devices don’t do that anymore. And you might say, well, on one hand, it’s great. It’s much easier to use computers. On the other hand, you’re not automatically being introduced to programming concepts when using a computer. much, much smaller percentage of computer users can even program.

Rob (26:42)
You start straight on creator mode rather than user mode is what I’m taking from that.

Jesper Juul (26:49)
Yes, I think that’s true. so, I mean, I’m not going to tell, so if only Apple or Google just made the devices this way, but you can see that part of the streamlining also kind of removes a lot of the flexibility and a lot of the, I’d say, to be kind of programming creatively.

Rob (27:09)
Interesting, interesting. feel like from what you’re saying is it is true like it and it’s amazing how it created this sort of subculture in a way, but it’s also true that now, you know, that that subculture might still exist. Like people still can use their PCs and their Macs to program and to create new stuff and all these game engines as well allow you to do all these things. But you have to be sort of a bit more intentional.

So it’s like a striking balance. don’t know. I find it interesting that it’s on the one hand, as you were saying, like, yeah, now it’s easier and more people are able to use it, right? But the people, maybe it’s sort of the sub stream of people who potentially would have been creators had they been just born in the era of the Commodore 64. Maybe nowadays they don’t exactly lose the opportunity, but they lose sort of the push, that incentive to get into that creator mode.

Jesper Juul (28:01)
also think that there’s also something interesting when you read, say, game magazines from the 1980s, right? That the European game and computer cultures were much closer tied together, right? Because people were playing on home computers. so computer magazines would write reviews about games, but then also show you something about how you could do a poke, like I’ll do this kind of programming commands to…

to say get into the drives or something like this. And so then the game magazines would also write sometimes about programming. So these kind of cultures are much closer together. They’re a bit more unified, where other places you had something a bit more like you’re a consumer of pre-packaged games or you were programming. But I think in Europe, especially, those things were very closely tied together.

Rob (28:58)
Jesper, this has been an amazing dive into, and at least for me, provocateur in the sense of now I definitely want to make sure I read your book. I do have one last question before we take off to make sure at least this one gets in is, there something from that, that what we’ve been discussing, know, the opening up to bidding and creator mode? don’t know, is there anything else that you think a lesson that C64 can teach us about building things that actually last in time?

Jesper Juul (29:28)
Well, I guess there are two things about it. One is about understanding history. that when I spent time looking at it, it was just funny that there’s usually always more stuff going on than you realize. And it was interesting for me to see that that just was this kind of fully-fledged European action adventure tradition.

like in the early to mid 1980s that I don’t think people actually appreciate having existed. And so that’s one thing like that. Well, we want more stuff to happen, but actually a lot more stuff happens in many more different ways than you think. And of course, there’s this thing about local game cultures. There are many different kinds of game cultures and people play games or make games or…

in many different ways, in different contexts. And I think that’s kind of super interesting kind of in its own. And I think the second part is just that

I mean, it is a problem. And I guess it’s just like the obvious problem to have two centralized kind of distribution methods, right? It is a problem if you just have a few companies kind of controlling what gets kind of not only made, but also distributed. And I think that that’s kind of pretty obvious, right? And so something like the famed Nintendo, it was a kind of seal of approval or quality seal. And that was meant to show that this is like

well-designed software, of course, that also just kind of super limits like all the crazy experiments, right? And so I think it’s just important to make sure that it’s fine. You can have the super curated like app store or what have you, but it’s actually important to make sure that it’s just always space for this kind of wilder experimentations, right? And then you do see the walls closing in a bit, right? Today, right? Even on computers,

that sometimes if I download small, small scale developed software, then sometimes my corporate kind of Windows PC does not want to run it right. Because it’s like, it’s a guy kind of dangerous because it hasn’t been registered a thousand times before. Right. And so that, is a, I think that is a real problem, right. That, that you prevent people from distributing like experimental software. And it’s just, I think, yeah, it’s worth

thinking about how can you lower those barriers to make sure that you can just always come up with new stuff and get it to other people.

Rob (32:12)
and make sure it works as well. Jesper, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you back on the podcast. We talked about so many interesting things. think too, Rob. Into nostalgia as well. Thanks again for being here. If you have any final piece of advice or anything, please do let us know where we can find ⁓ your book and then we’ll say it’s for now at least game over.

Jesper Juul (32:34)
You can find the book wherever you get your books, of course, online and preferably your independent online retailer. You can get from MIT Press. You can find links to from my homepage, jesp.jul.net. ⁓

some of those are early advertisements and there’s also some emulators so can both try and see programming of yourself or listening to some music or playing some of the games of the time. And if you want to program, there’s also source code for kind of several effects and so on. So I did want to not only have a book but also have a kind of supporting website with some of this material that you can put in a

Rob (33:24)
Amazing, amazing, thanks again Jesper for being here, however, at least for now and for today. It is time to say that it’s game over. Hey, Engagers, and thank you for listening to the Professor Game.

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