Rob Alvarez Bucholska
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Gamification Isn’t About Games. It’s About Motivation | Episode 431

 

I’ve interviewed hundreds of experts and now lead Engagement Strategy (EU) at The Octalysis Group.
If you want help applying this, start here: professorgame.com/chat

Why do people ignore things they know are good for them and obsess over games instead? In this episode, we introduce the Octalysis Framework, unpacking the eight core drives of human motivation and explain how human-focused design leads to stronger engagement, higher retention, and better-designed products, platforms, and learning experiences.

Rob Alvarez is Head of Engagement Strategy, Europe at The Octalysis Group (TOG), a leading gamification and behavioral design consultancy. A globally recognized gamification strategist and TEDx speaker, he founded and hosts Professor Game, the #1 gamification podcast, and has interviewed hundreds of global experts. He designs evidence-based engagement systems that drive motivation, loyalty, and results, and teaches LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® and gamification at top institutions including IE Business School, EFMD, and EBS University across Europe, the Americas, and Asia.

 

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Looking forward to reading or hearing from you,

Rob

 

Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Rob Alvarez (00:00)
Hey and welcome to Professor Game, the number one gamification podcast where we explore how games, gamification and game thinking help us boost engagement, multiply retention and build stronger products. I’m Rob. I’m the founder and coach of Professor Game. I’m also the head of engagement strategy in Europe for the Octalysis Group, which is the leading gamification consultancy. And I’m also a professor of gamification and game based solutions at IE Business School, EFMD and other top global.

institutions around the world. And of course, before we dive into this conversation, we’re going to be talking about diving deep into gamification today. And if the solutions that gamification brings, the highly desirable, quantifiable end result that you’re looking for is greater engagement, greater retention in your products, bigger loyalty in your services, or any of the things that you might see

that are achievable through gamification, let’s have a chat because we’ve got you covered. We can do something. We can work together to get you those results. All you gotta do is click on the link below in the description and we will get you started.

So Engagers, as I was just describing today, we will have one of those episodes where we dive deep or deeper into one of the gamification topics around the world. Today, as you know, a few months back, I joined the Octalysis group, which is, as I mentioned at the intro, the leading gamification consultancy and behavioral design. since I’ve been there, of course, I’ve been diving deeper and deeper into Octalysis per se, the framework, the way things are there.

And this, way we structure work as well and working with clients diving like really, really deep into all these kinds of work. Before I did this, I was very aware of the framework. I understood many things. even use it in many of my classes, but of course working on it is a completely different animal. Let’s call it. So today I want to take advantage of some of that experience that I’ve had to give you a, Octalysis is 1 0 1 so to speak on the framework. I’m going to be diving into.

And of course you can find a lot of content on this by Yu-kai Chou. he spends, you know, literally, he has probably thousands of hours talking about Octalysis and you can find that there. But if you’re following this podcast and you’re not super deep into Octalysis framework, this can definitely help you get started. And I also want to know if this is of interest to you so we can dive even deeper into each, either each of the core drives or left brain, right brain. We’ll be talking about that.

or anything within the framework. So this is also a small experiment to see where you particularly are at and how interesting this kind of content can be for you. So let’s start from the beginning. According to Yu-kai Chou the founder of this framework, gamification is all about deriving the addicting, the engaging elements from games and using them, and I’m paraphrasing broadly here, for real world productive.

Activities

At the Octalysis group, we strive to make important things more enjoyable and enjoyable things more productive. That is what we are constantly doing. And that is our approach to gamification itself. That is what we think of when we’re talking about gamification. And it all starts with what we call function-focused design versus human-focused design. In function-focused design,

Essentially what you’re saying is you give some instructions to a person or rather a robot and then this happens. You do A, then you do B, then you do C and that’s it. It’s simple. Life is function focused. You complete the task or you do not complete the task. You are in your job. You get paid to do that job. You do exactly everything you’re supposed to do for the job. You’re at the university. You’re supposed to study. So you study, right?

Well, as you may very quickly realize, this is not exactly true because that is not what happens. I’m a professor at the university as well. And I see many students who are supposed quote unquote to study because you’re there to study. And guess what? They don’t enter the corporate world or life and work. We’re supposed to do things we know they’re good for us. And yet we do not engage in those activities.

That is where we start talking about what we call human focused design. Why is that important? Because when you only consider us as again, robots, this happens and this has to happen as well. It’s like a sequence of things that happens one after another. You ignore things like choice and especially motivation and choice also provides with motivation by itself. What I’m saying here is

that when we talk about gamification, we design gamified solutions. We are thinking of things through the lens of human focused design. We’re not ignoring the function. The functions are important. You build an app and it is able to do A, B, So you get into the app and the person is able to do the activities or you get into this experience. You go to the university and people are able to study. They’re able to go to class. They’re able to listen to their professors. That doesn’t mean they’re motivated to it. And that’s when we enter human.

focused design, you’re considering that they have the possibility of doing those activities, but then there is something in between that is not necessarily connecting every time, which is the motivation. I can do it. Am I actually motivated towards doing it? And the theory behind the way we see this is that we understand that part of the reason why this industry is called gamification is because games and video games in particular,

We’re the first ones to really focus, like as an industry, video games are the ones who really understood this from the get-go and are able to design games with human focus. They’re really understanding the motivation because we play games only for the sake of playing the games. There’s nothing productive. Most, you know, most commercial video games, there’s nothing productive behind them. Chess did this, know, millennia ago, but as an industry, video games are the ones who started doing that.

Does it mean that everything needs to look like a video game? Does it mean that everything needs to be on a screen? Well, no, but it is all about learning those lessons, those elements, those techniques that we have from video games. And you start looking deeper into it. And you also find things in other kinds of games, sports, board games, et cetera, et cetera, bringing those elements into other types of activities that are not just there for entertainment. So that is the essence of it.

Does the result of a gamification process need to look like it is a video game or a board game? Well, the answer is no. That is a choice that you make along the way. You’re not forced into that. Something can be called gamification without looking like a video game, like a board game or any or a sport or anything like that. It is taking the principles because it is essentially based on human

nature, the way we process things, the way we are motivated. It’s sort of part of anatomy in many ways. So that is what you were considering when you’re thinking of gamification. You’re thinking it through the lens of, is this activity I am offering to people an activity? And again, can be an app, can be click here, click there. Is it enticing people into actually performing that activity? When you think it through those lens,

whatever the reward and of course there’s good and there’s bad gamification, essentially, know, gamification that works and gamification that doesn’t work. When you see it through those lens and you start thinking about the motivation and using those psychological principles, you are entering the world of gamification. What are the strategies? There’s many strategies. You’re entering behavioral science, behavioral design, all these things. You’re entering all of that. Gamification is a form of behavioral design, of behavioral science. And it is based on good gamification is actually based on

behavioral design and Yu-kai in particular after thinking and reflecting upon this for many years he created he designed the Octalysis framework, which is based on the eight core drives I’m not gonna super deep dive in into each of them with you know super deep examples or anything of the sort I just want to give you an intro to what these core drives are so that you start understanding what this is even about it’s an intro to

the Octalysis framework in general. So I want to give you that idea. Now we know what is function focused versus human focused design.

Let’s enter specifically, how do we view motivation within the Octalysis framework? The Octalysis framework Octo from the Octagon has eight core drives. The eight core drives there, we number them to make it easier as well to remember and to name. And I’m going to go through each one of them. So core drive one is epic meaning and calling. That’s when we are motivated to do something for a reason that is bigger than ourselves or because we were quote unquote chosen.

to be the ones to perform the action. There’s a greater power, so to speak, talking to us. And I’m not talking about divine or religious in any way necessarily, which is also included as well, of course, religion and that greater good and all that is included there. But there is something bigger. Wikipedia is a good example. Wikipedia is keeping the knowledge of the world and so on. People who are within Wikipedia, are moderators there, most of them are not being paid. They are…

almost solely motivated by that greater thing, that greater purpose, bigger than them. Right. And they’re motivated into taking action through core drive one, epic meaning and calling. Then we have what we call core drive two, development and accomplishment. Development and accomplishment is that internal drive of making progress, of developing skills, eventually to overcome challenges. simplified gamification tends to focus a lot here.

Because here’s where you have points, have badges, we have leaderboards. It’s sort of showcasing where you are and how much you are progressing, showing that achievement. It is relatively easy to design in those terms. It’s really hard to make it actually be working and drive results. a badge is meaningful if you overcame a challenge to achieve it, because it represents the challenge that you overcame. Giving a badge to somebody for logging into an app.

for the first time. It’s like, well, you know, is it meaningful enough? You need to have a win state, but you know, is that good enough? That’s where you start entering the terrain of meaningfulness of badges, which is all as important. Core Drive 3 of empowerment of creativity and feedback, which is the next Core Drive, is all about people being engaged with a creative process. When you were sort of repeatedly having to strategize to think through things in a creative way and then getting feedback of

how well you solved the problem, so to speak. When people are creating for social media, they’re engaging in a creative activity. You’re creating your own posts, your own things, and you’re getting feedback from people, getting likes, getting comments and all that. It’s one of the reasons why social media can be very enticing to create on when you start engaging in that activity, if this core drive is very driving for you. After core drive three, we have core drive four, ownership and possession.

It’s a drive where you feel motivated because you own something. You’re motivated into improving that thing, making it better or into actually going into action because you have that ownership or to increase that ownership or to have more. Money is clearly included here. You know, the possession, having more money, accumulating money, having collection sets. I want to improve my collection set. When sometimes we are spending a lot of time

in completing our collection set. example, when you are, you know, when the World Cup comes in and they have these albums where you have all the players completing the collection of having all the players in the album, you’re being driven by ownership and possession, completing that set. If you have an avatar in an app, customizing it and making it your own is the, it’s precisely an expression of Core Drive 4 ownership and possession.

Then we enter Core Drive 5, which has to do with social influence and relatedness. This is where we are motivated essentially by everything that’s social, mentorship, acceptance, social responses, responses, companionship, competition, cooperation, envy, all of the things in which we are being related to one another as fellow human beings is where Core Drive 5 comes in. We are driven into action.

Either because somebody else did it or because somebody else didn’t do it or because we want to be ahead of other people. Leaderboards also tend to be placed on this under this core drive. Notice that I mentioned leaderboards in core drive two and core drive five sometimes and oftentimes actually things are quote unquote included in several of the core drives. So core drive five is all about how we relate to what is our status within a group. And in my opinion, in my experience as well, it’s a very strong core drive and it has to do a lot with

our evolution as human beings. Back in the day, you know, if you were lived in the small tribe, we humans were not strong. We’re not fast. We’re not going to climbing trees. We don’t have strong teeth. Our best chance of survival is strategizing together, core drive three, but then together being in that group. So if they kicked you out of the group, it essentially meant that you are out in the wild by yourself and you’re probably just literally going to die basically. So you do not want that. Nobody wants.

to enter that terrain. So since you don’t want to be at risk and your life be at risk, you want to be part of the group. And that’s why we are a lot more willing than we would quote unquote wish to, to conform to the group and to the group norms and be part of the group or lead the group or have a status in the group. That’s basically the evolutionary reason in my experience why and what I’ve seen why that core drive is also so powerful.

And then we enter core drive six scarcity and impatience. It’s essentially the drive of wanting something just because it’s scarce because you don’t have it because it’s hard to have. When they tell you, you can only, you will only be able to access this in two hours. You’re, waiting for it. It’s like, I really want to get there or in a month or in a week, you’re thinking about it more and more often. You’re driven more into action just because it is scarce because it is not there. You don’t have it available.

you are motivating people into taking that action, essentially because they cannot take the action yet. That’s kind of the gist of Core Drive 6, scarcity and impatience. And then we have Core Drive 7, unpredictability and curiosity. It is a very natural thing to be curious about what happens next. And we’re driven into action towards finding out what happens after. That’s the reason why we want to watch a movie.

from start to end, or we want to watch a series and then we watch the next episode, or we read a book and we want to see the next chapter. We want to find out what’s happening because we’re curious and because it’s also, has a certain element of unpredictability. If everything is super predictable, you get bored very, very quickly. It is that motivation. Problem with that motivation of Core Drive 7 is that it’s also the reason why people get addicted to gambling, for example, because there’s a lot of unpredictability. We just want to find out, find out, find out, find out what’s going to happen next. Am I going to win or am I not?

Not even the reward itself, the gaining of people in the casino is the main driver of people who are obsessed. They make the money and it’s, ⁓ I have this money. Now I can continue gambling and gambling and gambling. It’s usually, maybe it starts as you think you’re going to make that reward and solve your life. But eventually it’s more about that whole obsession of being able to see what’s next, see what’s next, see what’s next. And the last core drive is core drive eight, loss and avoidance. It’s that core drive where we are motivated into action for not

Losing something or for something negative not to happen. We are avoiding a negative consequence So you’re driven into that because you don’t want the negative consequence to happen for example when you have Streaks in Duolingo, which is a very good example and I have an episode on streaks when you’re driven by streaks It’s because you don’t want that you don’t want to lose the streak You don’t want something to happen to your streak because it’s you some ownership over that that streak and and essentially you don’t want that negative consequence to get to happen

it’s like everything that you’ve done up to this point has been useless. You’ve been going into Duolingo for 2000 days becomes useless if you if you miss a day because that now your streak is gone. Right. So that is why it is so, so motivating and so strong in terms of motivation. If we follow up with this, I would I would definitely be diving deeper into things like intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation.

white hat versus black hat in the terms that a talents uses them. Let’s leave some unpredictability and curiosity maybe, or you maybe just research it online. I’m going to leave you with a bit of a cliffhanger to see if you’re interested in diving deeper.

So with that, Engagers, with that intro to the Octalysis framework, some very quick and small examples that I’ve been giving you. This is definitely an intro. There’s a lot more of depth. Again, Yu-kai has generated literally thousands of hours of content explaining how this works and how it’s being used at the Octalysis group and his personal practice. He’s probably derived a part of his other work.

outside of Octalysis is from the Octalysis framework as well. But this is as far as we’ll take it today. We looked at human focused motivation versus function focused motivation. We looked at an overview of which are the eight core drives and how they are named and what do they mean and maybe some quick examples on them. And I left it with a bit of a cliffhanger on left brain versus right brain, which is essentially left brain is extrinsic versus right brain, which is intrinsic and then white hat versus black hat.

So if you want to know more you can definitely find a lot online you can look at Yu-kai if you want to find out more about my perspective how I see the Octalysis framework what I’ve been applying and so on Do let me know if you can leave me a comment find me on social media Whatever wherever you are seeing these let me know that there’s something interesting and then you want some more or even just the feedback of more people than usual Seeing this episode or at least as much as usual that gives me feedback to see if we do this any further in future episodes so with that said

As you know, Engagers, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over.

End of transcription