Toby Beresford and his Book Infinite Gamification | Episode 141

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Toby Beresford is an expert on using gamification and statistical metrics in business to build the best working teams. He has appeared on Sky News, as a keynote speaker and has written about gamification for .net magazine and others. Toby has worked with organizations large and small including IBM, PwC and has even gamified the United Nations to encourage UN staff to use social media to promote the work of the UN.


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Rob 00:41    Engagers welcome. We have once again, a  guest I’m happy always to have friends back, and this is the case of Toby, but Toby, before we get started, are you once again, prepared to engage?  

Toby 00:51    I’m ready to engage. Looking forward to it.  

Rob 00:54    Let’s do this because Toby Beresford is an expert on using gamification and statistical metrics in business to build the best working teams. He has appeared on Sky News as a keynote speaker and has written about gamification for .net magazine. And others. Toby has worked with organizations large and small, including IBM PWC, and has even gamified the United Nations to encourage the UN staff, to use social media, to promote the work of the UN. So, you know, gamifying the UN it doesn’t get any broader and larger than that. I’m guessing, right?  

Toby 01:29    They’re a big organization, aren’t they? And, uh, certainly they’ve enjoyed being gamified and it’s been quite an interesting journey for all of us, sort of seeing some of the fruits of that.  

Rob 01:39    Absolutely. And then it’s like, you know, they are kind of all over the world. And what do you do after, after you, you gamify the UN, you know?  

Toby 01:48    Yeah. I know. Just wait for the checks to pour in which of course don’t pour in.  

Rob 01:54    That’s true. That’s true. So, so Toby we’re, we’re gathering back because I got an advanced copy of your book while ago. Now your book is already out there. And I think it’s a, it’s a nice opportunity to talk about the things that you’re talking there. Recently we also had Sylvester, you know, you probably remember Sylvester as well. He also launched this book recently. Um, interestingly enough, in these times of, you know, hybridity and online and all of that, and it has a lot to do with his book, but I do think your book is also very, very timely. It’s the book Infinite Gamification in the sense. Well, I actually, why don’t you tell us initially, let’s get started with that. Like what is the book even about?  

Toby 02:35    Okay, good. So what I’ve tried to do is really come from my own kind of practitioner experience where I think most of my colleagues and the other Engagers in the world of gamification has been thinking and working on projects that tend to be finite gamification. So that’s an often with a kind of a training mindset. So onboarding, it’s, it’s all about getting people through a sort of a set of hoops, allowing them to level up and eventually achieving some sort of Epic win like a badge. And whereas the sorts of gamification I’ve seen and been kind of involved in is less, has less that sort of objective. It’s much more been instead, how do we, our staff or our, our people, they already know how to do something they’ve, they’ve already been trained or they’ve already learned it, but that we’re more concerned about how they could, they adopt and then adopt those kinds of tools and those behaviors into their daily lives and then start to perform well and do even better at it.  

Toby 03:37    So, uh, and those sorts of programs where you’re thinking not just about learning, but you’re thinking about, um, how do I help people adopt things? How do I help tools? How do I people help people to perform better? Then that’s where the, where infinite gamification comes in, because it’s a sort of continuous improvement. It’s looking at each individual’s journey each day, each week, each month, each year, and tracking that over time. So I think that’s been my, sort of my that’s been, so I’ve, I’ve seen lots of, for example, that the most obvious examples, something like a sales scorecard, so most sales organizations where you’ve got three or four or even 20 salespeople, they will have some sort of sales scorecard, which tracks the behaviors that they need to do in order to achieve good sales. And that’s then reported back to them either as a score or as an entry into the president’s club or a hundred percent club or whatever. There are loads of different ways in which sales managers engage their sales team, but the fundamentals are the same that they are a type of infinite gamification program that helps those sales professionals continue to improve day in, day out as they do their day job.  

Rob 04:47    And talking about that because I agree that there are many, many situations in which it’s not a one-off or a, you know, month or even a year. It’s something that you’re looking at. You’re thinking about something that is going to last in the future. And when you create these things, how do you think about, is there some sort of update, how do you think about, you know, sort of the future, what happens after you create this? I mean, let’s, let’s assume you create it. You even went through iterations, we went through the hoops, it’s now working, it’s working well, do you think of, of updates? Like how do you approach this, this situation, like in a year’s time in two years time, in five years time or 10 years time? Like, what would the outlook look for you? Does it get old at some point?  

Toby 05:30    Yeah. I mean, and this is the key, isn’t it? So the key with an infinite gamification program is that it needs to evolve over time. And in the book I go through the sort of three sections, there’s an analysis phase, which most gamification professionals would recognize around understanding the real organization requirements behind it. A design phase, where you look at the different ways to do it, but they’ve actually the third phase is actually evolution. And I think there’s quite a bit of sort of fresh thinking in there because if you do come from a, a finite gamification background, there is a, a sense that, you know, I’ve built the program, it works and that’s it, it’s all done. And the players, if you like are traveling through they’ve, they complete the gamification program. And that’s the end of it. Whereas with an infinite gamification program, of course, the players are there and they stay there, but the behaviors that they perhaps want to track the tools that they want to use, whether it’s the work for the process, even their sort of their level of ability does of course change over time.  

Toby 06:30    So the program itself then has to evolve. And so we look at, I look at, in the book, some simple mechanisms for evolving, infinite gamification programs over time. And I think that’s a pretty key thing. And if I may say, I mean, one of the things that I think gamification and infinite gamification, in particular, can then bring back to the business community, is this idea of evolving the metrics, evolving the targets, evolving the way the scorecards, because I just don’t think at the moment most managers realize that it’s even necessary or perhaps have the right framework in which to deliver it and evolving scorecard.  

Rob 07:07    Absolutely. And this brings me back. I don’t want to sort of go into the deep end because we were in episode 37 with Toby. If you want to take a look at that you’re, you’re curious about what Toby’s story is, what, like, where do you start? What were some of his, you know, tough moments, his glorious moments as well, all those things are there. And we started talking one of those sort of the key lessons or the key things that went throughout, whereas what we called score science. And then you even suggested that we have Chuck and we had Chuck in the show as well. I understand that you’re and from your book as well, which I had the chance to read your whole theory stems from keeping good scores. So how do we keep good scores? What does that even mean?  

Toby 07:52    Well, that’s a good question. Isn’t it? And for me, the key is that there are good scores and bad scores. So that it’s as good as well or better phrase perhaps is well-designed scores and badly designed scores. So for me, an infinite gamification program is usually a score combined with some form of comparison, whether that’s comparing it to yourself or comparing it to others, individuals or comparing as a team, it doesn’t really matter. But the two usually go hand in hand. And the thing is that if you have a well-designed score, it’s going to create the positive behaviors that both the organization, that the manager creating this creating and publishing the score want and the player wants. So it’s a win for both, if you like. So a well-designed score has that effect. Now the problem is that a badly designed score will have unwanted side effects.  

Toby 08:42    It may do something that the manager wants, but not what the player wants. And you get this sense of manipulation. I’ve been manipulated by the score. But on the reverse, you might also have a situation where it does something that the player wants, not what the manager wants. And so, and then you have this sense of the program being gamed by the players. So it’s very important when anybody designs their own program, that they have that kind of idea in the mind that actually they can design it well and they can design it badly. And of course, that means that they, if there’s a chance to do something well or badly, that means everybody just has to think about it. And so what I’ve hoped to do in this book is really to signpost and our signpost, all the key questions that you need to ask yourself in order to create a well-designed program. I’m not suggesting I’m not it’s by no means a sort of a I’m afraid I can’t do all the hard work for you, but it is a toolkit that just says a set of checklists, which actually, so you, if you were to go through it, what you’d find is that you create a well-designed score would come out at the end of it because you’d have been forced to think through all the real issues.  

Rob 09:43    Absolutely, absolutely. You’ve touched upon something there, which is key. And we were talking before starting the interview, which is you’re talking about managers and employees, and there’s definitely among many of us, there is an interest and a push that we’re doing like myself, like in every day in everyday work. And all the things that we’re doing there is some of us who were also sort of trying to push forward. The fact that gamification gets sort of incorporated into business practice and to business studies as well because we do realize that this has a, can have a great impact, as you were saying, for example, in, you know, the management of employees, but also in other disciplines of business. So how do you view the side of, of what you were mentioning, sort of your you’re talking about how scores are well kept so that both sides of the business. In this case, employees and employers are satisfied, how do you think this will sort of break-in or hopefully break in to the business disciplines?  

Rob 10:43    That’s good. So I think particularly today with this a move to remote working for so many of us, I think it really does provide a kind of a new greenfield opportunity for organizations to look at the way in which they recognize good performance, but also help individual employees to focus on the behaviors that actually kind of deliver the goods for the business. I mean, we’ve had this sort of, I mean, I’m not a business management historian, but I mean, we’ve had a good long period now where we will be sitting in offices. And the main metric that employees and managers look at is the number of hours spent the sort of, this idea of presenteeism that the longer you are in the office, the better you must be as an employee, which of course we know is absolute rubbish. Um, the, the best employees aren’t necessarily the ones that spend the most time sitting at their desk.  

Rob 11:34    I mean, I’m going to jump in because I mean, it couldn’t be more timely sort of a comment in that sense. Like I’m not going to talk specifics in any capacity, but I know of many situations where exactly that sort of sitting on the chair time, it was being measured and whether or not people are sitting there, it’s not necessarily about results. It is powerful. And it’s refreshing. It’s one of the few things, good things that we’ve had from this pandemic. It’s the fact that many people realize that the pandemic came in. And in some businesses where this could already happen, it happened and nothing changed. And then everything is okay, so the business said, Oh, so this is something we can do. And actually we’re even saving some money, so let’s move forward with it. So it pushed some people there have been bad consequences. Of course, there are people whose jobs were, are not possible to do remotely and have had bad consequences, but, you know, they’re, I’m trying to bring in to get the good side of this. So I just wanted to make that comment to make sure it’s highlighted because I do think it is a very good time. Let’s talk about this.

Toby 12:31    Yeah, of course. And yes, and I think we all sort of all our roles and jobs are all changing a little bit as a result. And I think there is this period of adaptation into that is where I think lots of managers will be now looking at scorecards and the way in which they distribute the score, the results of what’s going on at work, because you have to, if somebody sort of stuck out on a limb somewhere where in their home that you don’t have that sense of shared achievement. you don’t have a sense of managerial presence. You don’t have that kind of, many of the, sort of the traditional toolkits that are manager hat tools, a manager has to support his staff, his or her staff. So, you know, offering a scorecard is something that I’m sure many managers will be trying to do.  

Toby 13:16    And, and it’s usually coming from an enablement background. So if I take one of my, I spent three years working with, with IBM with their inside sales team who were remote distributed team across the globe. And they were with transitioning to a kind of digital selling. That was the main kind of essence of what they were doing. And so what the management and the, and the gamification program for net gamification program that we put in place was that IBM put in place was really about looking at all the different tools that were, that would be given to those inside sales reps and saying, okay, let’s see how you’re adopting, how you’re performing using these tools. And let’s give you a score or some feedback each month with some limited comparison that wasn’t a pure sort of leaderboard, but some limited comparison with your colleagues so that each inside sales rep could see how they were doing on that kind of journey to being a better inside seller and a better digital seller.  

Toby 14:13    And it’s a great example. I’m one of the interesting things of course, is that that program changed an enormous amount from day one to the third year of the program. So, and it comes back to this idea that if the management team are looking at the scoring program, they’re looking at the feedback systems they’re putting in place and saying from day one, this is going to change in six months in 12 months time because there will be different tools that were different metrics. There’ll be behaviors we weren’t expecting. We want to kind of tune and tweak this. If they’re thinking that from day one, then I think the program has a chance of succeeding because nobody gets it right the first time. You always have to kind of evolve and change it in response to sort of, to use a behavior.  

Rob 14:52    Absolutely, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. And Toby, you know, this, you know, I’m, I’m also very much into education and I’m going to throw in maybe a little bit of controversy here. As we know, grades are also a score that we’re keeping and there are scorecards around grades. And I have personally argued that, you know, school and university in many, in many ways and in many capacities in general, and I’m generalizing very broadly as well is a poorly designed game. And I don’t know if you would argue as well, that it is a poorly designed scorecard in many ways. So what’s your first reaction when you, when you hear talking about, you know, grades and the grading system, and maybe I want to, I don’t want to talk about certification because some of them are very valuable as well, but the grading system, what comes to your mind as a scorecard and a scorekeeper, an expert one indeed. Yeah.  

Toby 15:44    So interesting. Isn’t it? So, I mean, I think the first thing is interesting is the two play together. I, we are conditioned through education to look at scorecards. I mean, that’s one of the reasons that score scores, scores and infinite gamification works at all in, in an industrial setting is because people have spent 18 years in education thinking and being told that, you know, getting a high score is a good thing. So there is obviously that sort of, sort of, um, that kind of link between the two. I, um, when it comes to your point about an, our grades a good thing. I think my kind of my perspective on it is that everything that we’ve found from in the world of infinite gamification is that every context is unique. And what I mean by that is that the more that we know about an organization or even an individual, but particularly around any kind of group, trying to do something that there isn’t a kind of a one size fits all infinite gamification sort of scorecard that you can just get out of the box and say, yeah, this is going to work here.  

Toby 16:45    It just doesn’t work like that because each organization, each kind of a learning journey, if you like, taking in the education world is going to have a slightly different skew and a slightly different bias. I’m actually doing a, I’m back in education myself at the moment, I’m doing a part-time theology course, which, uh, which is fascinating. Yeah, absolutely brilliant. I thought it was going to be really dull, but it’s actually interesting. So a different, there’s a whole, different world from gamification. So it’s quite interesting, sort of it’s good for me. And, but the way in which they, they mark us is yeah, they do give a grade a percentage, but the most interesting part of it is they also break down the rubric of what goes into that grade. So you can see across the five sort of, as the marker has looked at it, what are the difference of a few said, okay, these are the different five areas that she wants to Mark against.  

Toby 17:37    You can then see the feedback per rubric point, if you like. And so that, I think that’s, that’s an example for me of how this particular course is starting to sort of go beyond just the basics of a grade, start to think more broadly about better feedback at a more granular level. Because of course, as an individual, I need the sort of the individual feedback. I don’t just want to just tell me, you know, I’ve got a mark out of a hundred is a relatively limited use if I’m going to now optimize and improve my performance for the next essay or next paper. So I think that’s, I think coming back to your point about our grades, uh, grades, and I think they’re a good, they’re just one, they’re just a start, but actually I would encourage any kind of educator to think, okay, that’s fine. Now reading the book, where else can I provide better feedback to my students that will help more of them succeed?  

Rob 18:30    Absolutely. So just a small clarification. I, I, I don’t want to mean that grades are, you know, sort of grades should be just eliminated necessarily with the thing I’ve, I’ve mentioned many times to students is as an educator as well. I can tell you that we are, we need to, to set grades and that that’s fine, but there are also a series of restrictions around which those sort of gradable items need to be considered. And for example, like a, a simple test, the same test as we’ve, we’ve been taking for years and decades, I’m not sure that that is necessarily the best way to both, as you said, provide feedback, but also even understand what is the level of advancement that might be one of the best proxies available. It doesn’t mean it is a good proxy in any capacity. So that was in general.  

Rob 19:19    That tends to be my point around grades. And I talked to this about this with my students who get very, very anxious about grades. They feel their whole future is depending on the grade they’ll get. And for example, I just finished my operations management course, and some students feel like it’s the end of the world, whether they get, you know, the top grade or the second or the third or the fifth or the 30th, you know, it’s, and that is exactly my point. As, as you were saying, it’s not just about the number that you get there, which, you know, it has its value. I kind of understand it there, there’s also arguments that there go back and forth in that sense. But beyond that, like your main objective, your main metric personally must not be the grade. And that’s where I think there is a lot of room for intervention, as you were mentioning, both, both on the feedback side, which, which I think is, is positive.  

Rob 20:07    And whenever possible is very, very important, but you know, teachers as well can sometimes be overwhelmed with work. Sometimes they have too many sections, sometimes a single section is, you know, 600 people. So how do you personalize that? You know, hopefully, technology will start helping us with some of those things, but I’m not sure like the whole feedback is necessarily always possible. But I do agree like when you, when you can, write, as you were saying, an essay or one of the things I like to do with my students when we teach gamification is to give them feedback on a project. So they’re actually doing the thing. And that’s where tying the grade to doing exactly what they’re doing, I think is important. And it brings them into the industry in a way which hopefully is, is, is we agree on that one?  

Toby 20:49    Yeah, we do. We do. And I mean, if we think about this idea with infinite gamification that you, that, I mean, one of the models that I have in the book is about learning adoption performance and performance and how we, we kind of start when we learn. And then, then we need metrics that help us to adopt those kinds of new habits. And then we need metrics that help us to perform well at those habits. So if we were to apply the, kind of, the idea of infinite gamification for an educator, one of the first things I might say as a manager, and this is where it’s very interesting kind of area for a business school is to say, look, you know, the educator, either the manager’s job, isn’t just about helping to improve performance, but also maybe the educator’s job, isn’t just about teaching and learning.  

Toby 21:38    It’s also about ensuring adoption and performing well at it. So when we talk about my theology and parttime theology course that we’ll just stick with that. So theology is, so I, I’m hoping that this theology course will help me to, for want of a better word to do better Bible studies. So I’ll be able to sort of help other people to read particular bits of the Bible and understand it better. So what would be a kind of the, the, the sort of the, I get my grade and that’s the kind of the learning side, but actually the adoption and performing. So I might be that the people that whom I’m giving the Bible study to there’s sort of these four or five people might then give me some feedback on that. And that would then become part of my scorecard, which would then help others to see, help me to see whether I’ve actually adopted all the things that I’ve learned in theology. And am I performing well at giving those out? And so my challenge, I suppose, to any educator is where, when does education stop and, and can, you know, with, with something like, kind of an infinite gamification scorecard, there is that sort of opportunity to sort of define not just what happens when someone finishes learning, but actually to help your students to continue to adopt and then to perform well at what they’ve learned,  

Rob 22:51    What are those things that are being taught that are applicable then in their, you know, in their current or future workplace? Absolutely. Absolutely. Just a quick break before we continue, are you enjoying this podcast? If you’re listening through a podcasting app, please subscribe and rate us on the app. This will be of great help to reach more Engagers so we can change the world together through gamification. So Toby, the next thing that I wanted to get into is actually something that we do. I’m not true. I think we didn’t do it on your initial episode, which is taking a random question from the audience, and hopefully, it will be very, very related as well to what we’ve been talking about. Okay. So here it comes it’s well, I think it could be related to almost any guests. I think it’s a good question for most people and it is, how did you get started in gamification?  

Toby 23:47    Good question. So I came at gamification from the world of Facebook originally. So I was working as a social app developer for Facebook size building marketing campaigns, mainly for that were worked on Facebook for big brands. Like Reckitt, Benckiser Sony PlayStation. And as part of those projects as games, they were, I started to see this kind of idea of, of gamification the, I think it was at South by Southwest. It was called the game layer at the top of the world. And so I kind of saw it as the natural progression from the social layer, which is what I’d been working in for sort of three or four years with Facebook to the game there where we were not just sort of seeing our friends, but we’re also seeing how our friends are doing  

Rob 24:34    Absolutely. That’s fantastic. And, and since then, did you, I’m guessing that you got inspired from that experience and then got started with, of course, I mean, being from marketing it’s funny. I also was, was teaching quantitative methods. So a lot of numbers and statistics, um, some people were like, Oh, I want to study marketing. This is not necessarily relevant to me. It’s like, well, you know, come and going from marketing, especially in digital marketing, I think you’re going to be looking at quite a few numbers and statistics,  

Toby 25:00    Digital marketing is almost a number of numbers. Yeah, that’s right. And I mean, I think for me, the kind of the exciting part of gamification is it’s you, you’re trying to sort of see people flourish and for individuals particularly to get better at what they’re doing. So for me, the exciting thing is that we can put in place simple programs that provide good feedback, that in a sort of an engaging way that allows any individual to do better at what they’re trying to do. So that’s really been the kind of the thing that I’ve, I’ve seen gamification being its benefit is that it allows that because of the engaging design, because of the good feedback, it actually helps us to continue to get to continuously improve. It’s not just about you’ve achieved something and that’s it it’s actually, okay, this is the type of tool that’s going to help me on my longer journey. And for me, that’s very exciting.  

Rob 25:54    Absolutely. And you touch upon, and this is the last thing that probably where we’re going to get into, but you’ve touched upon something and you’ve mentioned it in different capacities before. It’s I would almost call it the ethical side of gamification, which I argue is even the place where it is actually starting to be effective, maybe not in the immediate run only, but also in the medium and the long term, which is, you know, that side of, you know, gamification is not about just benefiting one of the sides that is in that, in that circumstance. I don’t want to call it transaction because it’s not a transaction only, but it’s about getting people to improve on something that they actually would want to improve. And maybe don’t manage to do it because they don’t understand how it goes because they can’t get into the habit because they don’t find the motivation, whatever, whatever that is. Whereas when it, when it’s just sort of pure manipulation in getting you to do something that you would otherwise just not do, because you don’t want to, that’s where I think both the field, the person and the company doing this is losing in the, in the medium and long run. So I would just want it to bring that back and, and hear your, your, your reactions to sort of the ethical side of this whole thing because I think we have kind of been going around it for a bit.  

Toby 27:01    Yeah, no, I think it’s critical. And the keyword that I have from my experience that resolves this sort of the ethical conundrum is really about maturity. Having run really, quite a lot of these programs. I’ve always been surprised by how immature a large number of players are when they’re given a score. And in the book, I talk about this idea of player maturity, that when we receive a score, we all receive it in a slightly different way. And so somebody who’s very immature, sort of a baby will accept the score has given. So if I say, Hey, Rob, your score is 34. If you’re with a baby mindset, you’re like, Oh, my score is 34. And, and you wouldn’t, you don’t think anything other than that. Whereas a toddler, for example, as it were, feel four year old might reject the score out of hand say, well, I don’t care.  

Toby 27:48    I don’t care if my score was 34. And then we have a slightly, a more mature person that a teenager would. Then you just say what you would attempt to game the scorecard. I say, well, how can I make my score higher with doing the minimum amount of work? But then when you come to sort of what I would call us of an adult understanding and mature understanding the scorecard is you’d say, okay, 34. So, okay. So how, how can I use that score to track my progress and then optimize my activity over time? That’s, it’s useful to have this score, but how does it help me to get better at what I’m doing? And then it does actually go on that maturity model because prematurity, because then we have this sort of, the idea of a senior who will then challenges the score algorithm and say, well, hang on.  

Toby 28:27    How did you get that score? 34? Where does that come from? And is it actually measuring the right things? And then finally we have us over the idea of a retiree who for many different reasons may, will say, well, actually that score is no longer relevant. I’ve outgrown it. And so actually I think for me that this idea of maturity, when it comes to receiving it, to being given and to accessing and using scores, and there are lots of scores in our lives, aren’t there? There’s the, you know, whether it’s a Fitbit ratio or the, or the salary or a score that your boss has given or HR, there are lots of scores that we, or credit school, we receive lots of scores, but actually the key issue that I’m seeing is that people aren’t mature in the way haven’t matured sufficiently in the way in which they received them. And so I’d be really excited from my book from infinite gamification if it helped both managers and players to become a little bit more mature in the way in which we see the scores that are, are being used on us.  

Rob 29:20    Well, that sounds like a beautiful way to end this conversation. So Toby before we go, of course, where can we find more about Toby? Where can we find infinite gamification? Lead us to wherever you want, as in, of course, any, any other call to actions that you want to have this, this is a time before we say Game Over.  

Toby 29:42    Thank you, Rob. Well, guys have a look There’s a link there to the book it’s on Amazon as Kindle or as a paperback. And they’re also going to every time I sort of have one, have any kind of videos or downloads or resources, I’m going to be putting them up on that site. I’ve created an Instagram @InfiniteGamification. So if you like, I like that social media, please come and follow me there. And as a takeaway, it would be really helpful, we’re really keen. I think all of us within the gamification industry to see gamification being kind of used in the right way, but also, you know, used, used more widely. And so if my hope is that this book is, which is targeted at kind of any type of business manager or any type of leader, this could be a tool that we could actually be, we could be sharing within the kind of organizations that we’re in and saying, look, this is how you could be using gamification with your, your spreadsheet about your employees or your HR program or whatever it is. But I think what we really need to do within to expand the kind of the reach and the ability of gamification itself is to sort of seeing it being used in the right way within organizations. And my hope is that this book can contribute to that kind of vision.  

Rob 30:51    Absolutely. I’m sure. I’m sure it will. So thank you very much, Toby. We can find, as you heard, we can find Toby both on his website of, there is an @InfiniteGamification Instagram account. I know I followed Toby for a while on Twitter as well @TobyBeresford. So you can find the links to all of these things. You can go to, you type Toby and you’ll find both of these awesome episodes with Toby. And if you’re anything interested in these things about scorekeeping and scorecards and score science and infinite gamification, you’ll find a lot of value in both of these episodes. So Toby again, thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much for writing a book. I know it’s a massive endeavor, which is not always financially recognized, but I’m sure it’ll bring you a, you know, a lot of recognition from the work that you have done. So thank you very much for all of that, however, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. 

Toby 31:49    Thanks, Rob.  

Rob 31:51    Hey engagers, thank you for listening to the Professor Game podcast. And I hope you enjoyed this, you know, encore with Toby. And I know you always have interesting things you want to find out. There are questions that you have. So if you have questions, if there’s something that you’re curious about, something that would maybe be very useful for you and your life. Well, go ahead, go to and ask your question. It will very, probably be selected in the future. And if it does, it will come up in a future episode and you will get answered live by one of our experts. And before you go onto your next mission, do you want to know what is up, what’s going on next in Professor Game podcast? Well then subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode. See you there.

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