Eko Nugroho Facilitates Game-based Learning in Indonesia | Episode 313

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Eko Nugroho has been at the forefront of driving the implementation of game-based learning and gamification in Indonesia over the past 14 years. Alongside his team at Kummara.com, Eko has offered consultancy and advisory services in the realm of serious meaningful games and interactive learning to various companies and organizations. Additionally, Eko serves as an advisory board member at Ludere Nusantara Foundation (Ludenara.org), a non-profit organization dedicated to assisting teachers in implementing game-based learning programs and enhancing the overall quality of education throughout Indonesia.

Eko is also a distinguished gamification expert and has been recognized as a finalist for the Gamification World Award. He is widely acclaimed as an international speaker, having presented at renowned events such as Gamification Europe, Gamicon48V US, and the Connected Learning Summit at MIT, among others.


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Full episode transcription

Rob: Hey, this is Professor Game, where we interview successful practitioners of games, gamification, and game thinking who bring us the best of their experiences to get ideas, insights, and inspiration that help us in the process of getting our students to learn what we teach. And I am Rob Alvarez. I’m the founder of Professor Game and professor of gamification and games based solutions at Ie Business School, EFMD EBS University, and many other places around the world. And if this content is for you, then please go ahead and subscribe to our email list for free@professorgame.com slash subscribe. Hey.
Rob: Engagers. And welcome back to another episode of the Professor Game podcast, and we have a very special guest, as always with us, and this time it is Echo. But Echo, we need to know before we start, are you prepared to engage?
Eko: Yes, I would be happy to.
Rob: Amazing. Amazing. Good stuff. Good to have you here, Echo. We met a while ago, and I recently realized we hadn’t had this conversation, so I was keen to get you on the podcast after meeting on Gamification Europe, which is also coming up.
Rob: Well, by the time this comes out, I’m not sure if it’s coming up or already, but anyways anyways, Gamification Europe is just around the corner, so that reminded me of the interest I had in having a conversation with you. Echo, we need to know that you’re engaged. You are engaged. So let’s look into who is Echo Nugrojo. Nugrojo?
Rob: Is that well, yes.
Eko: Just call me Echo.
Rob: Nugrojo has been at the forefront of driving implementation of games based learning and gamification in Indonesia over the past 14 years. And alongside his team@kumara.com, Echo has offered consultancy and advisory services in the realm of serious, meaningful games and interactive learning to various companies and organizations. And additionally, he serves as an advisory board member at the Luder Nusantara Foundation ludanara.org, which is a non profit organization dedicated to assisting teachers in implementing game based learning programs and enhancing the overall quality of education throughout Indonesia. He’s also a distinguished gamification expert and has been recognized as a finalist for the Gamification World Award. He’s also widely acclaimed as an international speaker where he’s presented in events, as I mentioned before, as Gamification Europe.
Rob: He’s also on Gamification 48, Gaming Con 48 V us and the Connected Learning Summit at MIT, among many others. But Echo, we’ve said plenty of good stuff about you. Is there anything that we’re missing that you want to mention before we start on this podcasting journey of the day?
Eko: No, I think you already mentioned a lot or even too many. Thank you. Fantastic. I love to have very good coffee and toast. That’s something important to say.
Rob: Also, I know in Indonesia you have great coffee as well, right?
Eko: Yes. Our coffee is amazingly tasteful.
Rob: It’s nice to encounter somebody who also knows how to appreciate. I don’t drink a lot of coffee. Don’t get me wrong. There’s people who have two, three coffees a day. I have maybe a couple of coffees a week, so not too many, but when I do I like to have good coffee.
Rob: I don’t just drink anything, I like my good coffee in Bando in Indonesia.
Eko: I will brew some for you then later.
Rob: Amazing, amazing. Good stuff. I recently discovered the cold brewing which brings out some very interesting notes in coffee as well. Less of the acidity. There’s something else that is less than it’s not so good and it has been a good experience for me as well.
Rob: I don’t know if you’ve ever tried that.
Eko: Echo I think we should stop here, otherwise we can speak about coffee for you’re.
Rob: Right, you’re absolutely right. So Echo, your day probably starts with coffee or not, that’s up to you, but we want to know what your day looks like. We want to sort of be in your shoes for a bit and understand what are you doing these days.
Eko: Okay, I begin my day usually with a prayer because in Indonesia majority is Muslim and also myself. So we woke up around like 430 in the morning and start with a prayer and me myself follow by a brief meditation usually and after that I could check my calendar. Otherwise Augie, my team will be very upset. With me if I forget my schedule and after that I love to have my morning reading when I read the morning several page of book or paper and usually also continue it to have small discussion with my wife and then after that our family enjoy breakfast around 07:00 a.m with my doctor. I have very lovely doctors and after breakfast we do morning exercise.
Eko: We love to walk, jogging or swimming and usually we spend some time until nine in the morning afterwards. My wife, daughter and I each focus on our individual tasks. We work from anywhere basically most of the time and we usually wrap up our work by five or 06:00 p.m.. We have this rule that we need to shutting down our laptop by five or at very late at 06:00 p.m and evening consists of either dining out or having dinner at home and continue my books or paper. And usually we have two episode of Kid Ferries or Amnium with my daughter.
Eko: Before then we go to bed around 09:00 p.m.. So that’s my working days and on weekend we often go for camping trips. If we went for camping we have brunch at our favorite restaurant and followed by some quality movie and game time usually. So that’s my day basically.
Rob: Amazing. It looks like you have plenty of things and it’s very structured. There’s plenty of people who like to have structured days and that is amazing. It works for you I’m guessing, so keep at it. Meditations, it sounds like a very good way to start the day, amongst other very good things as well.
Rob: Echo so thank you for sharing that anybody wants to structure their day. That is a very good example of some of the things you could be doing for sure. So Echo, let’s dive into story mode at this point. We want to know and we go all in always like this. We want to know of your favorite fail or first attempt in learning, especially of course in the world of game based learning, gamification and so on.
Rob: We want to be there with you, be at the ground level and the trenches with you fighting that war that you’re fighting against wherever you were not actually able to reach. At that point, we want to take those lessons. We want to be there with you. And of course we are aware of the NDA. So if you don’t want to name any names, that is perfectly fine.
Rob: We’re more interested in the experience and the story than anything else.
Eko: Okay, this is one interesting question, really. Honestly, I failed a lot. So I’m not sure where to start if you need me to choose one as my favorite, I don’t think I want to choose any of them as my favorite. But anyway, one particular failure did serve as a significant stepping stone for our program right now. And word of Proud is not really on point with this.
Eko: But let me start the story anyway. So the story started when we had the Pandemic at the beginning of the Pandemic, what we did earlier. Basically we are consulting firm for many corporations and organization and we usually do boutique style consultation which means that if you have a company or organization and you want to use a game as tools for learning, then use very special design program. And most of the program before the Pandemic is like offline in class directly at the beginning of the Pandemic, we need to redesign our game based learning program to function entirely online. And I mean from 2002.
Eko: After 2010, I was in Germany for my study and some works. I remember the time in 2002 when I arrived in Germany for the first time, I had my internet connection in my apartment like 100 megabytes per second. So when I back to Indonesia in 2010, our internet connection speed is still less than ten megabytes. Now it’s better, honestly. But during the Pandemic, our internet speed is like ten to 20 megabytes per second.
Eko: So again, we need to redesign our game basining program to function entirely online. So with whatever limitation we have, we try to redesign everything, think through what kind of platform that we can use and honestly, we worked quite hard to design it. And an opportunity emerged when one of our partner company expressed interest in implementing the program. Honestly, at that point that was very elite program, that was for their executive learning initiative and the participants are their senior leaders. So for us that was a tremendous opportunity and we already designed what we call multiplayer digital board game that capable of accommodating eight to 16 players.
Eko: And we designed because of some limitation. But we’re really proud at that time because I think we found a way to design what we call large group multiplayer game. So we test the game and the overall learning program and our confidence was high that everything would run smoothly on sleep. And our partner is one of the biggest company anyway in Indonesia. So we set up our team at the most sophisticated place to make sure the internet connection and everything work well because our partner company is also one respectable company, so we don’t think there will be any connection or any technical difficulties.
Eko: So we are ready to go when the program starts. I eagerly explain everything. I’m really proud with the program and the game and we use zoom at that time and then I eagerly share the game links and login because the idea is that every participant can just jump in, log into the game and then we can engage together in the game. But then issues arose. Some participants reported difficulty joining the game.
Eko: So one participant, this is one senior leader, he said that echo, I don’t think I can log into the game. He said, he said, what? I don’t have any problem. And then followed by the others. And then we have like 20 participants, only two of them can log into the game.
Eko: Wow. So imagine that you have 20 senior leaders. After like 15 minutes, you claim this is going to be the first pilot of multiplayer game program, the first in Asia and et cetera, 18 senior leader cannot look into the game. I said, okay, wait, I’m sweating. And then imagine that you have almost ten years of experience facilitating and that was awful.
Eko: And then I said, okay, sir, can you share your screen? I said, okay, one of the most senior leaders have his screen. And I realized at that time that our gaming platform that we use at that time was blocked by the company network.
Rob: Oh goodness.
Eko: Because I can mention this is like a banking company. This is banking. So they have very tight security, strong security and stuff. I think even more my team look at me. But the first thing I know about facilitating game listening is that you need to project confidence.
Eko: But at that time I’m not sure I’m really projecting confidence anyway, did I stress out? Absolutely. However, after some I don’t know what really happened, I’m just quite a blank at that time. But I quickly adapted, thinking about, okay, I think I can running the game myself and then asking the participant just to provide their instructions where they want to go and what they want to move. And fortunately our game was turn based and it’s possible to do that.
Eko: We designed the game basically turn based group and the participant also already in groups, which basically is the situation. So we proceed with the game and the session. While it went reasonably well the technical problem and my initial stress likely made it one of my less optimalization I think if I cannot say my worst did I fail to deliver an optimal session? Yes absolutely that was one of the worst. However that experience become very valuable learning opportunity for me and my team.
Rob: Of course.
Eko: Honestly it’s inspired us to develop what we call now a facilitated game based learning sessions. So this is a game based learning session that fully facilitated by capable facilitator and the participants don’t need to access the game by themselves. And we also design a very specific facilitation protocols and we also refine our game design approach to ensure that all of our facilitated game best learning program optimize the experience for both the participants and the facilitator and the rest is history. Basically we have successfully conducted facilitated Gamebase learning session for major corporations and organization in Indonesia and basically that what I said last time in Gamification Europe. And additionally we have developed a social program to assist teachers in implementing but.
Rob: I’m going to pause you there because I love this story definitely but maybe you want to get into that when we actually talk about a huge success which I think is part of what you’re talking about right now. And I wanted to dive deeper. That’s why I’m pausing you. Especially because I wanted to take a step back and say, look, you change the way that you do your game based learning, but if you had to deliver something similar to what you were doing, and the option of going for Facilitation was maybe not there for whatever reason, or what other alternatives could somebody have? What are the things to think about when you face these kind of technology connectivity, security issues do you have any thoughts on that?
Eko: Honestly, at that point of time, I’m not really this is very hard question. No, I’ve never thought about it. Basically, the opportunity is there for me. But if I need to redesign everything again and at this point of time we design multiple program both for facilitated and we call it unfacilitated. But my point talking about this approach is because this facilitated game based learning program at least for Indonesia this is encompassed a lot of things because by this approach we don’t have any technical problem.
Eko: We can also facilitate the session all over Indonesia with online and we try to push the approach or a lot of other things but now the technology is so much better now and we have more access to lot of things and we have more experience. So honestly, now we have lot of more flexibility to develop whatever program that we love. So I hope we never face that kind of situation.
Rob: Amazing, thank you for that experience yeah.
Eko: But my point is that why I want to share this is because sometimes when we talk about game based learning. I mean you are in Europe I mean I would spend my time in Europe. I visit us. There is some research about learning culture. So in Europe and US you guys have very strong the research states that a very strong individual learning capability which means that you guys have this strong point in learning individually.
Eko: And most of the game based learning literature is based on research in Europe and US. But if you look at our learning culture in Asia, especially in Indonesia, in the research state that our strong point in learning is basically communal learning. It doesn’t mean that we cannot learn individually. No, but our strong point is communal learning which means we are better and then we are more excited if we learn together. So this concept of facilitated game based learning bring that into the point.
Eko: So somehow we found this magical formula how we can bring simple game based learning approach into more audience with some technical limitation. And when we found out this work for the corporate level, we always think, I mean me myself always think that teachers are the most important executive in the world. But if you compare the corporate learning program for executive in corporation and learning program for teacher or teacher training program is like heaven and mean there are so many Gavin in Kumar in my company we always believe whatever we know. It works for the corporate sector. We need to bring it to teachers because teachers are the most important executive in the world.
Eko: So after we found out that we can develop this kind of facilitated game based learning program we work with a foundation. Partially the foundation is founded also by me but now it’s like completely I’m just like their advisor. I said let’s do this. And for the last three years, believe it or not, we engage with more than 80 schools all over Indonesia in six different cities and we train more than 300. Even now our alumni is more than 2000 teachers.
Eko: So they can use any existing game around us, around their environment to be used in what we call classroom facilitated game based learning.
Rob: Amazing.
Eko: I’m not calling that my favorite failure because I don’t want that to be happened again. But I think that something brings a lot of joy in the process.
Rob: Yes, amazing. And I think that definitely qualifies for one of those times when actually things went very well. So let’s actually jump into a question because we want to sort of pick into your brains and see how these things work for you. We would like to know of the process, the steps, when you’re coming up with game based learning or gamified solutions. How do you do it?
Rob: Essentially? Do you have to come up with something new from scratch? What happens? Does it happen in your brain? How does your team organize?
Rob: I don’t know what’s the way in which this comes actually into fruition?
Eko: That’s very interesting question. We try to formulate this in one of our programs. So basically we have what we call game design program. Since 2014, it tried to formulate this way of thinking. And I’m not saying we already successful, but nowadays our recent approach is quite we have like significant improvement in the way we try to, how you call it, socialize or try to bring this process in kumara.
Eko: We have what we call Kumara adm process. Adm. The A is stand for after event, d is for delivery and the M is for mechanics. So when we design a game based learning and gamification program, first we need to prioritize understanding the program goal or objective or what we want to achieve after the event of the session. And then we need to determine the most effective delivery method, whether it should be like online, in class, or it’s group or individual should be synchronized or perhaps synchronized.
Eko: And after understanding that, then we can select the appropriate mechanics to convey the program. Now the interesting part, when we selecting the appropriate mechanics, basically if we look all the game around us, we can use it, especially when we use our game based learning protocol as facilitated. Game based learning protocol because basically it’s very flexible because the protocol state only three steps. We call it prologue and preplay, which is opening. And then you do play or simulating.
Eko: And then you do what we call post play and epilogue or basically reflection or debriefing. So if you imagine that you can use any game by these three protocols to convey a lot of content or learning materials. But if you use this approach, this after event delivery and mechanic, then it’s more complete, it’s more holistic. So when we talk about designing a game based learning program or gamification program, first we tell the participants or our partner. So let’s look at this approach.
Eko: So think what is your goal, how you can deliver any program, and then try to engage with whatever gameplay or mechanics that you already know. Start with what you already know, and if you want more, then we can try to think it together. That’s the simplified method to construct the program that we have, of course, a lot of detail involved, especially when we work with the corporate sectors, with different learning objectives, different participants. We should also take that into account. This framework.
Eko: And just to be note, also the framework is basically inspired by the I don’t know whether you’re familiar with this, the MDA framework presented by Robin Hanickel and Mark LeBlanc and Robert Yufek. They have a paper about it. You can just googling it. This MDA game design framework, I believe so that’s it. I hope that gives some overview here.
Rob: I hadn’t heard it before, to be honest.
Eko: I’m going to look it up to include classic paper. So in the game design, robin Hannigan, Mike Lewis and Robin Zubak have this we call MDA framework. MDA consists of mechanics, dynamics and aesthetics. For me it’s very interesting.
Rob: I think I know what you mean now.
Eko: Okay, I hope that answers definitely does.
Rob: Thank you for all those details and all that insight knowledge that you just gave us, Echo. And talking about insight knowledge right. You’ve had, as we mentioned at the start, a lot of experience doing these things. So I’m sure you’ve ran into one, two, or probably more best practices. Can you tell us one of those like one thing that you say, well, do this and your Gamified project or your game based learning is going to be at least a lot better than it was if you didn’t do it.
Eko: Okay. My team always remind me don’t talk with Echo, but best practice because Echo best practice is like 90 minutes of talk and 30 minutes of coffee. Anyway, I always believe that we need to design our game based solution or game based learning or Gamification program based on three fundamental concepts. This is what I always ask my team to do. The first is simplicity.
Eko: So simplicity from every aspect. If you know the simple technology, then use it still. You need to prioritize the objective and so on. But start with the simple technology. Start with the simplest process.
Eko: Bring simplicity in every process. When you put the content, when you write down the narrative aspect or whatever, just start with simplicity. And the second fundamental aspect is of course interactivity. Now when we talk about interactivity, people, every game is interactive. But we need to understand that there are a lot of interactivity in the game.
Eko: First, the interaction between the player with the game itself. Okay? But if you design the game well then you can have this interactivity between the players, the game and other players. If you design it even better, then you can bring interaction between the players, the game, the other players and their way of thinking. So you need to know what kind of interactivity that you want to bring into the game.
Eko: And it’s not only about bring mechanics, this system, it’s just like what kind of interactivity some people call it what kind of experience that you want to. For me it’s like what kind of interactive interactivity that you want to bring to the game. So that’s the second fundamental concept is like simplicity then interactivity. Absolutely.
Rob: Oh yeah. Okay, go.
Eko: Which means that you need to test it out. Whether it’s effective doesn’t matter. You have simple, good interactivity, but at the end it’s not effective to convey any messages or any code that you want to achieve and it’s not work well. So that three concepts always simplicity, interactivity and effectivity. So I’m not sure that is best practice.
Eko: But I think if we can deploy our program based on those three fundamental aspects, I think that’s quite okay.
Rob: Amazing. Thank you for that. And now we have the Quick Fire questions. The first one is after hearing these questions and the interactivity in the podcast, is there somebody that comes to your head that you would say, well, I would like to hear this person answering those questions. A future guest for Professor Game.
Eko: I love to learn, but I can recommend you your future guest. I think. I believe having my mentor and partner, Scott Osterweil from MIT Education Arcade as a guest on your podcast would be fantastic choice. Partly because I miss Scott. I think he’s very well respected game designer and game based learning activist in the world.
Rob: Amazing. If you can help us get in contact, that would be brilliant.
Eko: Yeah, that’s really possible.
Rob: Amazing and keeping up with the recommendations, what book would you recommend us, if you had to say about one book?
Eko: Okay, one book is hard question. I love books. You really have very hard question, Rob. Why everything need to be one? Anyway, now, my point is that because since I’m married with my wife, we have this commitment, one book a month each of us at least.
Eko: And then now we have our doctor. So at least every month we have three books at least every month. And we always choose sounds like a.
Rob: Very good plan to have today.
Eko: And we always choose our favorite book. So it doesn’t make sense if you buy a book that you don’t like. Anyway, if I need to recommend some books okay, first book is from Scott, anyway, and from Eric Lofter, Jason Has and Scott Osterweil. And also, I believe, Louis Rosenberg. I met all of them in MIT when I visited MIT in 2018.
Eko: The book, I believe entitled resonance games. They have a long title of it. Wait. Resonant Games design Principle for Learning. Games that Connect heart, mind and every day.
Eko: So that’s one. I really enjoyed the book because Scott is one of the author. But the book provide a very good perspective about how we should design and implement Gamebase learning program overall. So I recommend you to and everyone else who hear this podcast just to look for the book. And the good news is the book is basically also open access in MIT.
Eko: So if you just go to Restaurant Games, MIT open access, you can have each chapter of the book in open access and you can also have it in Amazon. Anyway, but if I may, I also want to recommend Honestly Think Again by Adam Grant because I think it’s very important for all of us work in the game Basining and Gamification or game in general, to always think again our approach. And I think the book by Adam Grant really pointed out and the last you asked me once, I give you a bonus too. I love the book The Alchemist by Paulo Paulo, because I think the context of the book is bring the whole idea about if you want something, the world will test you. So if we want to bring game the best game in the world, so the world will test us anyway.
Eko: So The Alchemy is just one of the book that I really love. I can give you more ten or 20.
Rob: Amazing. For now we’ll keep those three. I will jot down the first one you said as your favorite and I’ll put the other two on the list as well, if that works for you. And we’ll move on to the next one which is actually about you because we need to know what is your superpower? That thing that makes you better at least than most other people.
Rob: Was that thing that you do at least better than most other people?
Eko: It’s really a tough question. The reason is really tough because I believe my doctor and my wife possess more power than I do. So that’s one reason why I have no idea about my superpower. But I always said to at least to my team and I really don’t have time to think bad about others because I think I would more than happy to use my time to think about how can we make something better rather than to think about this guy, something like this. I don’t really have time to think bad about others.
Eko: It doesn’t mean that I don’t have anybody that’s doing bad thing to me. No. But even though if there is somebody doing bad thing to me, I don’t want to spend my time to think about that too much because I believe everybody do everything for good reason. So that’s one thing that I keep practicing at least until now. But if related with game based learning and Gamification, I don’t know whether it’s superpowers, but I have this my firm belief in what we call transformative potential of games to address lot of issues, also the global issues even more.
Eko: I truly believe that game can play a vital role in solving the world problems. And I always say to everyone, I believe Indonesia is the best place to create game solutions because I mentioned it. Also in Gamification Europe we have all the world problems so this is the best place to create game. So you name it, we have all the problem that you have. So even more, I don’t know that superpower or not, but I’m living in the best country to create game a solution and I truly believe even my wife call it blind Love to the game.
Eko: So I believe we can use game to solve any problem that’s it.
Rob: Hopefully we can or we can at least use those strategies to find those solutions.
Eko: No, that’s why I recommend you The Alchemist I believe because I believe I have a lot of problem along the way. Absolutely.
Rob: And you mentioned difficult questions before. Well, this one is going to be more difficult and this time it is about the one game that you would call your favorite game. If I told. You. What is your favorite game?
Rob: What is your answer? Echo.
Eko: Rob? This is really hard. I learned the game design and in Germany for almost like six years, seven years. So when I went back to Indonesia, we bring like more than 300 collection of board games from Germany. But I fall in love in game through I don’t know whether you know it it’s catan the board games.
Eko: It’s a German board game called I don’t know, katan. In German, we call it katan. Yes.
Rob: I’m sure most of the audience is familiar with Katan. For sure.
Eko: Yes. Because the game has literally changed my life. It’s the game that opened my eyes about how game can be designed and can bring a lot of joy. So I love katan. If I need to put one but me myself, because I have this, I mean I practice it quite a lot.
Eko: I usually install at least like ten or 20 games in my phone and my laptop and play all of them in the weekend and then I install whatever. I don’t think it brings some joy. I love several mobile and PC game, especially the city building games and strategic one. And I should mention also Civilization status is amazing as digital game.
Rob: Do we keep Katan or do we keep Civilization? Which one do we keep?
Eko: Can I keep two of those? And neither one is not because my daughter play Roblox. So I bounded to say I love Roblox. You cannot force me to choose because I bounded my situation to fall in love to Roblox world. Yes, katan, civilization and amazing.
Rob: Amazing. Thank you for your answer and before we let you go, please let us know where we can find out more about what you’re doing, your academy, all the interesting stuff you’re doing, where we can find that information. Is it a web page, several web pages, social media, wherever you want to lead us to before we take off.
Eko: Yes, you can get some news about what we do, what our company do in Kumara.com. I cannot spell it very well in English. Anyway. It’s Kumara. Anyway, I think Rob can put it later on in the podcast.
Eko: But me myself, you can reach out me faster through LinkedIn. I believe my name is Icono Broho, Indonesia. You should find me there or in my Instagram because I’m practicing to write down daily mostly in Indonesia. But now I believe we have translations features in both of the platforms. I don’t think you will find it easily to understand whatever I write through the translation features and you can always email me through my company.
Eko: But honestly, for my email, I have very good team as Augi who handles a lot of things faster than me. So without anywhere you love and Michael, we will come back to you. So thank you for everything anyway, that’s great.
Rob: Thank you. Echo, thank you for sharing all of that, sharing your knowledge, sharing your experience, all of what you’ve been doing, where we can find out more about you, definitely. However, as you now know and the engagers definitely know, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. Engagers. Thank you for listening to the Professor Game podcast and I’d like to know how are you listening to this podcast?
Rob: If you’re using any podcasting app on your mobile, have you rated, have you followed this podcast? Both are for free and if you haven’t done so, please go ahead and do so because that helps us a lot to reach more engagers like you to achieve this mission that we have of making learning amazing. If you would like to have instructions to some of the major ones, please go to Professorgame.com itunes. And of course, before you go on to your next mission, please remember to subscribe or follow for absolutely for free using that favorite podcast app we were talking about just seconds ago and listen to the next episode of Professor Game. See you there.

End of transcription

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