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Discover how playfulness, not just work, holds the key to creativity, resilience, and a more fulfilling life. In this engaging conversation, Rob Alvarez, founder of Professor Game, interviews Chris Marshall, a behavioral scientist and futurist who explores the power of playfulness as a pathway to human flourishing. Chris shares how his own experience with burnout led him to the transformative potential of playfulness, breaking down the essential pillars of curiosity, creativity, and connectedness. He offers practical insights into how individuals and organizations can cultivate a playful mindset, not by adding new skills, but by reconnecting with their natural, childlike curiosity and creativity. Whether you’re looking to enhance your personal life or revitalize your workplace culture, Chris’s advice provides a fresh perspective on how embracing uncertainty and letting go of rigid expectations can unlock a world of possibilities.
Chris Marshall is a Behavioural Scientist and Futurist whose specialist niche lies in helping individuals, teams and organizations to thrive in times of challenge, setback and disruption. He is also the founder of The Playfulness Institute, a not-for-profit organization that promotes research and strategies to build creative, engaged, dynamic organizations through playfulness as culture. Beyond this, Chris holds a vast amount of experience from a number of industries and what he labels ‘obsessions’. He is a TEDx speaker on playfulness and burnout, the author of the book Decoding Change, and is currently writing his next book: The Playful Advantage.
Guest Links and Info
- Websites:
- Chris on LinkedIn
Links to episode mentions:
- Proposed guest: Hanna Kinsella
- Recommended book: Elastic
There are many ways to get in touch with Professor Game:
Looking forward to reading or hearing from you,
Rob
Full episode transcription (AI Generated)
Rob:
Hey, this is professor game, where we interview successful practitioners of games, gamification and game thinking who brings the best of their experience to get ideas, insights and inspiration that help us in the process of multiplying engagement and loyalty. I’m Rob Alvarez. I’m a consultant and founder of the professor game and professor of gamification and games based solutions at IE Business school, EFMD, EBS University and other places around the world. And if this content is for you, then perhaps you will find our free gamification course useful. Find it for free. Free@professorgame.com freegamificationcourse all one word. Professorgame.com freegamificationcourse hey engagers, and welcome back to another episode of the Professor Game podcast. And we have Chris with us today. Chris, but we need to know, are you prepared to engage?
Chris Marshall:
Oh, absolutely. And always, I’m always ready to engage.
Rob:
Let’s do this. Today we have Chris Marshall, who is a behavioral scientist and futurist whose specialist niche lies in helping individuals, teams and organizations to thrive in times of challenge, setbacks and disruption that might bring a few memories to many of you as well. He is also the founder of the Playfulness Institute. That is a not for profit organization that promotes research and strategies to build creative, engaged, dynamic organizations through playfulness as a culture. As culture. Beyond this, he calls a vast amount of experience from a number of industries and what he labels obsessions. He’s a TEDx speaker of playfulness and burnout and the author of the book decoding change and is currently writing his next book, the Playful Advantage. So you can guess at this point why we have Chris on today. So Chris, is there anything we are missing that we should know before we dive into the regular questions?
Chris Marshall:
No, I don’t think so. It’s always kind of worrying when somebody reads out the introduction, isn’t it? Like, oh my word. Now I’ve got some pressure on my shoulders to actually perform it. But no, we can go wherever you want, Rob. I am an open book. Yeah, absolutely. Looking forward to the conversation. And thanks. Thanks for inviting me on.
Rob:
Awesome. So let’s start by the simplest of things. What do your days look like? What does it feel like to be Chris nowadays?
Chris Marshall:
What does it feel like? It can be a cacophony of things. I think the words obsessions in my bio is not there by accident. It made me chuckle a little bit. I saw you chuckle at that. But that is a fairly accurate description of my life so far, the 40 years I’ve had on this planet. I spin multiple plates I struggle to call myself a kind of a polymath because it sounds far too pretentious for me. I love it when others call at me, by the way, but I struggle to do it myself. But I am certainly a multi passion person. I have worked in lots of different industries, from finance to. I have owned a distillery, I’ve written books, I do keynote speeches, I run kind of, as I said, founder and director of the Playfulness institute. I’m a researcher, so I do lots of different things. So my day is varied, and that’s the way I like it, actually, what I’ve come to realize and live with, and I think this is so true for other people who are potentially kind of multi passionate, is in the younger years of life, you struggle to kind of accept who this person is because society likes to say, oh, you should have one career and one path and everything else. And then for me anyway, I’ve learned to embrace it and learn that there’s an energy that comes from drawing on multiple different projects, different areas, different thinking.
Rob:
So, and to be fair, this was something that, I mean, just, I don’t know if you’re a vampire or something, but judging by your age, you’re probably not from the same generation as my parents. Right? And in that generation, and prior to that, you know, the thing of looking forward to spending your whole life in whatever company, or maybe a couple of companies, if something went really wrong, that was the thing. It’s no longer the case. Like when people, you know, I have many students and they kind of get, like, super, you know, riled up about, oh, what’s going to be my first job? And don’t get me wrong, it is important. It does help you, you know, and it gives you certain directions, but it’s not fatal, it’s not final. It will not be your last job. With 99.999% chances, it will not be your last job. So, you know, yeah, freak out about it just about enough, and that’s it. Just move on and do whatever you have to do. If you don’t find the perfect job for the start, it is not a huge issue.
Chris Marshall:
Go for it. Yeah, absolutely. And isn’t that, I mean, there are so many striking differences between now and just a few decades ago, and if we go back further a few hundred years ago, then those differences become even more striking. And that was one of actually where we are. So decoding change, as you mentioned in the introduction, was really a book. So obviously my background is as a behavioral scientist and futurist. I ended up in investment management, as well as these other plates I spin. And really, my work there was looking at trends and megatrends and how the world’s changing, and coming to the conclusion that the world we live in today is at this kind of pivotal point of change. And I mean, this kind of like a significantly pivotal moment of change in human history. And that’s because we have so many trends and megatrends on the go, so drivers of change under the surface. And you’re absolutely right. It’s not just jobs which is in flux and bringing uncertainty and change. It’s every single aspect of our life. So decoding change teaches people to, I don’t know, kind of the way, I guess I’d explain it is better see, change, it doesn’t mean you can predict the future the way, but it’s kind of that idea. And I’m going to get the guy wrong. But somebody read in about 1920, I think, kind of said, it’s better to be vaguely right than precisely wrong. And that’s essentially what decoding change is about, is it gives you a direction of change, but there’s still this ambiguity and uncertainty, even if you know roughly where the world is heading, that you still have to deal with. And that’s where my research and playfulness then comes in, because it’s this beautiful pathway of human flourishing as I see it. So, yeah, that was a very long.
Rob:
Segue into typically, I would go into the next question, but, you know, I’ve had discussions about futurists before. I’m not sure if on the podcast, but with plenty of people. So can you give us a gist of what does that mean? And especially, what does it not mean? Because if you hear a futurist, depending on how much you’ve heard it before, some people, I think you have a crystal ball and that you’re just looking at the future and say, tell people, oh, give me $5 and I’ll tell you who you’re gonna marry.
Chris Marshall:
That’s exactly what I think. No, I’m joking. So what it’s not is predicting which if you look at kind of most people go, oh, well, that’s just normal. But actually, if you look at most human behavior, that’s exactly what we do. We predict the future. We kind of create this one scenario that we believe is going to happen. We do it so much in business, by the way, that we kind of, we call it a business plan, and we kind of go, I know the path that this is going to take over the next 250 years, and I’m going to achieve 1% of the market capital and everything else. So being a futurist is looking at scenarios and kind of looking at what might happen, what might be a core scenarios, and what might be kind of at the fringes and what does that look like? So it’s actually not coming to a defined, definite, this is the path the world’s going to take, but understanding the multiple paths it could take. And so what we’re actually doing, I mean, let’s bring this back to playfulness, because playfulness has a massive role in this, is because playfulness is almost the deviation from reality. We can sum this up in lots of different ways, but one of the aspects of playfulness is cognitive flexibility. It’s not being rigid, it’s being open, it’s being flexible. And when we look at kind of how we think about things, there are kind of fracture lines in what we call reality. And those fracture lines, if we think about kind of counterfactual thinking or counterfactual thoughts, they deviate from reality in certain ways. And we do that in kind of actually a kind of standardized way. We normally change context or time. There’s a few others that we change. And so being a futurist is always just playing with those and just going, okay, well, if we change the common narrative of where do we end up? And we start building out these scenarios, and that’s extraordinarily useful from a creative point of view, from an idea of risk planning, scenario planning shares an awful lot of kind of crossover with the design thinking, too, of looking at things in systems. So, yeah, so that’s kind of what a futurist.
Rob:
Nice, nice. Good to know that we’re there. So talk about futurism, and especially of playfulness. Can you tell us a story of a time that things went sideways? Essentially? I don’t know if you were not predicting, but looking at scenarios and something entirely different happened, what did you do about it? We want to be there again, especially if it has to do with playfulness, which is, as you know, centers that we discuss here.
Chris Marshall:
Absolutely. So, actually, I’m going to give you a story of actually when something went sideways in my own life, because that’s probably the one I can give you the best story of. So I’d actually just finished a piece of research. I was at the time looking at resiliency and mental toughness in investors. And do they evaluate losses and gains differently? If you’re mentally tough and have a high level of resiliency, I’ll spare you the really dull, boring part. Of that research. But shortly after that, I burnt out, completely burnt out. So I hospitalized myself for three days. That was certainly a setback and a curveball. I thought naively, I was a researcher of mental toughness and resiliency, which should protect you from stress as we often portray it. And here I was lying in the hospital bed going, hold on a minute. I’ve just succumbed to the thing that I should understand and fully be kind of safeguarded against. And the kind of, I’m going to bring this back to playfulness through one of the core strands of my life is curiosity. So within playfulness, I have a model of playfulness called the three pillars. Model of playfulness, three pillars scale, curiosity, creativity and connectedness. If you’re high in those three pillars, I would say you’re a playful person or a playful organization. And so the curiosity piece was the piece that saved me from that burnout and actually was the catalyst for me to start researching playfulness. So I burned out. As I said, I kind of was probably pretty clued up on what mental toughness and resiliency were. It hadn’t worked for me. And I was curious enough to go off in search of, well, why? What am I missing? Is it something I’m missing, or is it something those constructs are missing? And so where playfulness kind of came into that was I was looking for what’s beyond if we really dig into mental toughness and resiliency. And I know I’m completely off topic now, but this is about play, so I’m allowed to play. If we look at resiliency and mental toughness, that they tend to be kind of put across as constructs where we don’t slip in times of setback, we stay the same, the status quo. We stay at a baseline, whereas there is something beyond that, where we grow from setback and chaos. So we can see this within kind of mental health work, where it’s kind of post traumatic growth. And I would argue that’s where playfulness and hardiness personalities sit, is when we’re playful, it’s part of our learning mechanism. We’re highly curious. So there’s a joy of discovery which helps prevent anxiety and just kind of that freeze response, which happens when our nervous system is in a place of threat. And so for me, absolutely the kind of playfulness saved me from burnout, but actually also was the catalyst and the launch pad for me going off to discover playfulness in the first place.
Rob:
So we’re on the topic, what is playfulness for you? Like you’ve been talking, we’ve been going around it. How would you define it? What does it mean for you to be playful? For an organization to be playful?
Chris Marshall:
So, I mean, this is where it gets really interesting because. So first off, I normally say we have to separate play and playfulness. The common conception of what playfulness is, I think is very poor. It’s very lacking. We typically in society conceptualize it as something along the lines of fun, joyous. Often we then get to the negative aspects of silliness. Maybe we’re throwing creativity, spontaneity. But play, let’s define that. Play is the involvement in an activity. So it could be a game, it could be sports, it could be the kind of, I don’t know, extreme sports, bungee jumping, whatever. Playfulness is the mindset we bring to it. So actually, we could say that not all play involves playfulness. It can have playfulness as a mindset, but it can just be in the involvement in an activity. So playfulness as a mindset. Now we start to dig into, okay, so what does that look like? And does it need to revolve around activities? And this is where I’d argue it doesn’t actually. For me, playfulness as a mindset is our pathway to flourishing as humans. That if we look at our stress response, that is. So when bad things happen, we have this stress response which has kept this species going for lets say, 300,000 years. We can argue that timescale. But its a fundamentally important part of being cuban. But the absence of stress is nothing. Nothing. The absence of stress is joy and playfulness. Playfulness is a state where we actually, you know, when we start looking at research, we learn faster, we retain more, we moderate stress, we orientate towards possible positive futures. And so where the difficulty comes in is because playfulness touches so many different aspects of life, is defining it is really hard. We all have an intuitive sense of what it feels like to be playful. But actually pinning it down so this is what it looks like is hard. So I have my own definition from research, but I think actually the one I’d offer you, which is better just because it seems to land with people when I do workshops or speeches, is so there’s a guy called Doctor Stuart Brown, who’s the founder of the National Institute for Play. And he very cleverly said, well, play isn’t. And what he said is that play isn’t the opposite of work. No, I’ve got this quote wrong.
Rob:
I think it was something like, yeah.
Chris Marshall:
It’S the ending part. It’s the ending part of the quote, which is important, and it’s that play is the opposite of depression. And when you really kind of like, sit and think about that for a second, often the penny drops of what playfulness is. If we kind of categorize playfulness or conceptualize playfulness as the opposite of depression, all of a sudden we’re contrasting it with a low energy state, with rigidity, with closed mindedness, often helplessness, hopelessness, a negative outlook on the future. And so playfulness, if it’s the opposite, it’s high energy, it’s open mindedness, it’s got agency, it’s all of these wonderful features which propel us forward. So that would be how I would define it. We have to define it, what it brings us and how we feel, because it touches too many areas of our life to be defined in just a couple of words.
Rob:
Cool. Thank you very much for that. And, you know, you’ve been talking about, you know, all these benefits and all the things that you can reach through playfulness, so how can we do that? Especially, like, I’m guessing that that’s part of your new book. And of course, we’re not going to read the entire book on a podcast, but if you had five minutes to tell us, how is the process of reaching playfulness, whether you want to go for individuals, for companies, we want to sort of get into your mind and see if there’s, again, a process, a series of things to do. I don’t know, what would that be? I’m guessing that’s, again, part of your work in general.
Chris Marshall:
Yeah, absolutely. So if we look at this. So the playful advantage is, is a book which is looking predominantly organisational culture, because that’s where I really fascinated with research, is playfulness as culture. So it orientates around these three pillars of curiosity, creativity and connectedness. Connectedness is both to self and others. And so when we’re kind of looking at that, I think one of the interesting things which comes from it is often human nature goes, okay, what do I need to learn to do this? That’s kind of. We live in this kind of additive world that we believe if we want to be something different, we need to add something to who we are already. Playfulness, actually, I would say that goes the opposite way. As kids, we are so playful, it’s almost mandated in much regulation that we have to be playful. And then something weird happens when we become adults, and that is we kind of go, oh, yeah, yeah, that’s what kids do. I’m Noah. I’m a serious playful, serious, like non playful, adult. I’m this kind of this, this Persona which is stressed and serious. And so to unlock playfulness again, we almost have to unlearn, not learn something new. We already know how to be playful. So one of the baselines for that, I mean, let’s talk about some of the ingredients needed for playfulness. And the first thing we’ve already touched on is stress. So it’s actually the absence of, or the absence of perceived stress. I should say that we can still be playful when it’s stressful. It’s just if we feel that if we detect threat, that is the stress response is on, we can’t be playful. And again, that’s got some really big evolutionary reasons behind it. Like kind of a couple hundred thousand years ago when the lion roamed past our cave, you really didn’t want to run out, like shrieking with joy that there’s this big cat out there. You wanted to either run and hide or freeze or whatever response. So there’s a reason why there’s a connection between psychological safety and playfulness. So that’s kind of a baseline. When we’re then talking about what else is needed. I often talk about it in kind of like, when we’re not playful, we’re kind of all tangled up. It’s like a bit like a ball of string. And the more you kind of tug at it, which is how we’ve approached things like happiness, we go off and search, I’m going to be more happy today. And we just kind of tighten the knot and it doesn’t work. The same thing is happening with playfulness. We just need to start actually shaking things up, that it loosens itself. And so one of the things I talk about with this is there’s so many different ways we can build playfulness in our lives. One of them is just literally just getting used to uncertainty. And we do that by, we can be proactive in our life of just shaking things up, that we can give ourselves the quite playful task of every day I just want to do something different. And the first few days are super easy because you just go, okay, well, I normally write with my right hand. I’m going to write my left hand today, tomorrow, I don’t know, maybe I. I drink tea out of a glass instead of out of a mug. In the first few days. We’re not really having to do much to get there. And then what happens is we start having to activate that curiosity muscle. We have to start that joyful discovery process of going, well, what else can I do? And then we have to also engage creativity to go, okay, well, how can I bring this about? And so just by literally shaking up our world, what starts to happen is you start to identify all these areas of life where we’re just living on autopilot. Playfulness is almost the opposite of autopilot. Playfulness is searching for new opportunities, new possibilities, new kind of wondrous things to get involved in. And so by shaking up our lives in a small way, it has this spillover effect, and over time, that’s very powerful. Another way, which seems very simple, is actually just kind of, again, sparking that curiosity model. So I’m actually about to go off to the indonesian jungle. I’m taking my son, he’s just turned 15, so I’ve taken on an adventure. It is part of the uncertainty. I’m embedding him in that from a fairly young age. And one of the things I’m really looking forward to is actually the process of sounds being completely unfamiliar to me. So we can engage in something called playful listening, where just for a minute or two minutes, we just completely submerge ourselves in the sound that’s going on. It doesn’t have to be in the indonesian jungle, by the way. I’m just quite excited about that bit. It can be wherever we are, but it’s learning not to be judgmental about the sounds. You’re not trying to go, oh, what’s that? Is that car coming closer or moving away? It’s just observing, because also what we found is when you stop being judgmental, you actually start to become naturally more playful because you’re more open to other experiences. So there’s so many ways we can kind of kickstart that engine, but it is. It’s kind of about just detangling and coming back to who we were as a younger self, that we added this layer of cultural conditioning and probably beliefs on top of that. We need to get past cool.
Rob:
Thank you for letting us into that. Those several recommendations that you gave us on how to perhaps become more playful. And I love the examples as well. And then the indonesian jungle. Good stuff, Mandy, I hope you enjoy yourself out there. So from this experience, from all the research that you’ve done, from the work that you’ve done as well, is there a best practice, something that you say, well, do this. And it’s not a silver bullet, but maybe it’s going to help you. Your playfulness is going to be at least a little bit better if you do this, if you go through this kind of thing.
Chris Marshall:
Yeah, I think probably the one that most people won’t get their most out of, whether it’s playfulness or nothing, but it’s certainly something which stands in the way, you know, aside from the other things that we’ve just talked about. And that is kind of really getting to know your own limiting beliefs and narrative. And this sounds completely unconnected to playfulness, but without that kind of piece of self awareness, you are almost living on autopilot. And quite often, because we’ve built up such a kind of cultural narrative of what playfulness is and normally is the antithesis of work and success in cultural terminology, then quite often when you start. Certainly when you start talking to executives or leaders, there’s normally this sideways glance when you start talking about playfulness as culture in a business, in a serious business, because they’re like, that’s just not what we do.
Rob:
We are serious here.
Chris Marshall:
Yeah. Because we’ve built this idea. It’s almost like, I think one of the examples is the neoclassical idea that ancient Rome was this kind of. This brilliantly lily white marble statues and temples is a really modern invention. Actually, when we go back, all the statues were brightly painted. And there’s this really weird thing that we’ve done in modern society, and that is we’ve brought forward all the high society and sophistication from an erade, and we’ve completely left behind the light hearted, vibrancy, humanity part.
Rob:
Interesting.
Chris Marshall:
And we’ve done the same kind of with business. We adopted many different management techniques during the industrial revolution. We’ve just carried them forward. And so what happens with all that is obviously culture influences our narrative and beliefs. And when playfulness is so, I don’t know, like, seen as such a poor thing to do as a successful adult, you have to also. You have to. You have to examine what your beliefs around it are and actually bring some awareness to those, because if you don’t tackle those, you’re always going to come up against this. I know I want to be playful, but I just don’t seem to be able to do it. So that’s. That’s probably the other thing that I’d say is. Is very worthwhile people doing anyway, whether they’re trying to be more playful or not, is just get a handle on what your beliefs are and where they’ve come from.
Rob:
Cool, interesting stuff. Chris, we would like to now get a few recommendations from you. And the first one has to do with a. Perhaps a guest. I know you’re a podcaster as well. You probably had plenty of guests too. But is there anyone that you would listen to or be interested in listening to answering these kinds of questions that refer to maybe on the playfulness side, maybe on the game side as well, which, as you know, is a big part of the podcast as well. Somebody comes to your mind when I say this?
Chris Marshall:
Yeah, it’s probably actually one of a co founder of a business, and that business is called icy bear cubs. It’s the gamification of essentially children’s oral health is we have this massive problem with children’s oral health that it’s in the UK anyway, it’s one of the biggest reasons why children are being kind of referred to hospital. It’s the same in the US, it’s the same all around the world. And because we’re not brushing teeth properly, it’s a very basic thing. And so what we did at icy bear cubs was actually gamify brushing teeth. So you start earning points, you start going through kind of gameplay of different scenarios. So Hannah Kinsella, one of the co founders and co directors, she would definitely be somebody that should be on to talk about the gamification of oral health because it’s. And the wider education piece of that sounds brilliant.
Rob:
Love it. And how about a book? Of course, you have an existing book, an upcoming book right next to those books, perhaps. What would you like us to have?
Chris Marshall:
I think probably it’s one I haven’t read yet, but is on my bedside table to read. In fact, it’s one of the books I am taking to Indonesia for the flight. And it’s just called. I think it’s just called elasticity, flexible thinking. Because again, it’s an aspect of playfulness that we overlooked. But that’s partly what playfulness is. It’s the ability to think beyond the status quo in the box.
Rob:
Nice. Sounds like a very good book. How about we talk about what would you say is your superpower, that thing that you do within playfulness that you know doesn’t have to be unique, you don’t have to be the only one who does it, but that you do better than at least most other people.
Chris Marshall:
I think it’s curiosity. So my style of playfulness is whimsical. I know we haven’t touched on styles of playfulness, but there’s lots of different types. Whimsical is the noticing of novel or obscure. And for me, my superpower is definitely curiosity, but particularly around this kind of whimsical playfulness style. I notice things that others don’t and that has certainly been a massive power behind many of the different jobs I’ve had. Opportunities that have come to me is just through noticing.
Rob:
Nice. Sounds very cool. And now we get to the difficult question, which, you know, maybe for you. You’re mentioning that you’re not necessarily into games as much, but we would like to know, and there are many options here. Remember board games, card games, sports, video games, of course, as well. We would like to know which is your favorite game.
Chris Marshall:
Does it have to actually be a physical game? Because the game of winding up my kids is probably my favorite game. That’s like endless. And the rules can change all the time. In fact, this morning I was driving my daughter home and I decided that I’d let her set the directions. But there was a caveat to that because she obviously noticed the way home. And that was, I just give her really ambiguous things to decide on, that she had to choose big or small. She had no idea what that related to, related to either the big road or the small road. Did she want a or b? Did she want to choose one, two, three or four? It’s only a ten minute journey, but it took us 40 minutes. So playing with my kids in kind of highly curious, fun ways is definitely my favorite game.
Rob:
Sounds cool. Sounds like a good one. You gave us an example, so we kind of know where that is going through. And Chris, before we let you go, of course, please let us know where we can find out more about what you do, your work, the Playfulness institute, wherever you want to go. And if you have, of course, any final piece of advice, any final words, this is the right time.
Chris Marshall:
Superb. So, yeah, so to actually find out more about me, probably ChrismarShall dot UK, that’s my personal website, and people can connect on there for whether it’s, I don’t know, whatever they want to connect on there for speaking stuff or workshop stuff or whatever else. And then the Playfulness Institute is just playfulnessinstitute.org. and on there, people can take a self assessment playfulness quiz that scores them on the three pillars, playfulness scale. There’s tons of information if you’re a team leader or organizational leader, on how to implement playfulness. But yeah, those are probably the two best places.
Rob:
Awesome. Sounds great. Chris, thank you very much once again for being here today, for sharing some of your insights, some of your experience, your knowledge. However, Chris and engagers, as you know, at least for now, and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. Hey, engagers. And thank you for listening to the Professor Game podcast and since you are into gamification in game inspired solutions, how about you go into the free gamification course that we have for you? Just go to professorgame.com freegamificationwork course all in one word, professorgame.com freegamificationcourse and get started today for free. After that we will also be in contact and you will be the first to know of any opportunities that professor game might have for you. And remember, before you go on to your next mission, before you click continue, please remember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of Professor Game. See you there.
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