Rob Alvarez Bucholska
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Roman Rackwitz Goes Deep With Loyalty and Engagement | Episode 356

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Is gamification about balancing intrinsic and extrinsic motivations? Roman is here to tell us that it is not. Our conversation delves into the principles of intrinsic motivation, emphasizing autonomy, mastery, and purpose, and contrasts them with the short-lived benefits of extrinsic rewards. Discover how thoughtful gamification design can lead to sustainable employee engagement and long-term behavior change.

Roman Rackwitz is an internationally renowned pioneer in the field of gamification and intrinsic experience design. Recognized as one of the top 10 experts worldwide, Rackwitz develops, communicates and advises government institutions and commercial enterprises worldwide with the ‘Non-skinnerian Gamification’ school of thought. He is also regularly invited as an expert in media such as TV, radio and print. In addition to the consulting company Engaginglab and the software Tabi, Rackwitz also founded gamification.design, a contact point for all professionals interested in the topic to receive further training and certification. In 2022, he founded CBO Media, a publisher that focuses purely on topics related to behavioral economics in order to bring this knowledge to companies in a practical way.

 

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Looking forward to reading or hearing from you,

Rob

 

Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Rob:
Hey, this is professor game, where we interview successful practitioners of games, gamification and game thinking who brings the best of their experience to get ideas, insights and inspiration that help us in the process of multiplying engagement and loyalty. I’m Rob Alvarez. I’m a consultant and founder of the professor game and professor of gamification and games based solutions at IE Business School, EFMD, EBS University and other places around the world. And if this content is for you, then perhaps you will find our free gamification course. Find it for free@professorgame.com. freegamificationcourse all one word professorgame.com freegamificationcourse hey engagers, and welcome to another episode of the Professor Game podcast. And we have Roman back with us. Roman Rekwitz Roman, third time as far as at least I could see in the archive, but we still need to know if this time are you prepared to engage?

Roman Rackwitz:
Always. And thanks so much for having me.

Rob:
Excited to have you back, Roman. Last time we were talking about your manifesto, previous time was the first interview. As far again as I, as I could see, your bio has changed. Things have changed. I’m sure you are now talking about something along the lines of the non skinnerian gamification, which has seemed to be picking up some heat internally and externally, and I love that. And we’re going to be discussing a lot about that. Recently we had your, your colleague from Tabby as well, Bernardo. So we’re going to be talking a little bit about that, of course, of your perspective on that and many other things. But Roman, is there any quick updates you want to give for us before we actually dive into any quote unquote formal questions?

Roman Rackwitz:
No, no, it’s not. But the one thing I really want to say, and I already told you, told you that before, the record here, is that I think it’s time to say some kudos to your effort and what you’re doing. And I already told you all the continuity that you’re putting in, into the stuff. I know from my own experience how difficult that is, but it’s amazing that we have someone like you here who’s. Yeah, it’s almost like some kind of documentation of the whole industry, right? And so that’s amazing. Thanks so much.

Rob:
Thank you so much. It has been, you know, there’s the ups and the downs, of course, there’s more difficult times. But I am excited to do this. I’m happy to do this. Now that we also are having some of our episodes in video, or most of them lately, some people can go to YouTube and see what does this guy even look like, what these guys look like when they’re talking and so on. If anybody’s curious, you can find us on YouTube as professor game for sure. And yes, I’m excited to be doing episode 300 and something that we’re doing today. Hopefully we are aiming to get to the 500s in not so many years. It’s probably a couple of years away, but still excited to do that. So Roman, what have you been up to? I mentioned the non skin area and I mentioned Tabby. You know, take your first stab. What is, what is taking up your, where are you investing your time nowadays when doing gamification, which as far as I understand is still, you know, the biggest part of your day? Yeah, professionally, of course.

Roman Rackwitz:
No, it’s totally. So, I mean, for 15 years now, we are doing actually gamification as a business. And what changed a little bit, and probably around the last three, four years, we recognized that. So before that we were a classical gamification agency, right? So someone called us and said, hey, we need gamification and then you need to execute it, please. And so we came together, we did some kind of calls, workshops, whatever it is, and we realized that most people, they, they just called us. So they called us to do gamification, but actually they have no clue about gamification. So they don’t know if they really want gamification. And often it was the case that they asked for gamification. But at least how I see gaefication, often gaefecation would have been the wrong tool for them. And so we ended up in being more like a strategic advisor, helping them to audit their actual situation, to analyze it, to find out what are the circumstances, what are the conditions, what is your goal and to find out that, think about it, you don’t need intrinsic motivation, so deification is not your thing. Of course it would be great if we would have intrinsic motivation. But like as now as you are measuring success or the KPI’s for example, like let’s imagine someone says, hey, we need people to use our software this way or to buy that stuff in our ecommerce shop. Or I want my employees to learn more about this software or whatever it is or realize that they can do something and then I want them to do something. So often, for example, methods like nudging would have been much better than gaefecation or classic reward programs as to say, hey, if you do this, then you will get something and we will make this what you get much more exciting. So that you do that. But we are not interested in, to be honest, most companies, they want them to do something, but to be honest they don’t care if they have fun. So if the people do that and they don’t have fun, the KPI is mad and everything is fine, right? So I mean a simple example is, let’s say you have, we have, I don’t know, we have a training program once so you have to do it only once and it takes up to, I don’t know, two days. Okay. And the company is doing that because for example, they are being forced by law to do that.

Rob:
So it’s more like a classic.

Roman Rackwitz:
It’s a classic. The point is if it wouldn’t be for, if they wouldn’t have been forced by law, they wouldn’t care about the content itself. So they don’t care if the people still know about the content afterwards. And so it’s not about learning difficult stuff. So there is no need for, let’s say a growth mindset and so there is no need for intrinsic motivation, so there is no need for gamification. And just as an example, and we realize that much more often than just doing or executing in gamification design, we help them to answer the right questions, taking better decisions. And this is when we realized, okay, perhaps there’s something in that and we need to change. And because of that now for the last, I would say two years, we became, we changed from a classic gamification agency that’s developing the content, that executing the stuff and rolling it out into a strategic advisor, helping the companies to find out what kind of behavioral tool is the right one. It could be gamification and of course we could help them forward, but we could also be that we say, no, no, it’s nudging. So here’s an expert for nudging. No, no, you need a reward program. He is an expert for reward program. But why should you? I mean, I mean intrinsic motivation is something that’s very complex and complicated. It takes time to achieve that. And so it’s expansive. Implementing nudging, or as I said, classic rewards is much, it’s faster, it’s much less expensive. And so often you have a situation where it’s just stupid to do gaefecation. And so, yeah, we are, so this is how we changed and being able to communicate that, to develop the methods for that, to make it better or easier for the customers to realize, okay, what are the questions? What do we need to answer? What are the consequences out of that? So like a choice cascade, if you want to call it this way. So this is what we are doing on a daily basis.

Rob:
Nice. Very interesting. The whole strategic side is something that’s always, I mean, with calls with clients, there are sometimes where I find myself just like you. Like I’m asking questions and it’s like, but this is not about what you’re implementing. It’s like, well, I’m first asking because I want to know if this is what you want it. You’re saying you want to have a race car game around people competing to get this or that. Does that really make sense? People come with a fixed idea of something that maybe they want it. Is it really the right solution? What are you solving for? What is the problem that you’re trying to solve? Figuring that out, unsurprisingly, is hard. Most consultants are literally trying to figure out first what the people actually want to solve so that then they can see if they are even the right fit to be the ones to solve that. But anyways, it’s nice to see you have that mindset is instilled, it’s installed and you have not only figured out how to do it, but also how to picture yourselves in that journey for your customers and the people you’re working with. Sounds very exciting, to be honest. Kudos. Kudos for that and thanks. One of the things that you were mentioning and that I know it’s been part of your spiel for a long time, I think probably ever since I’ve known about you, you’ve been sort of been a stickler about this. And I agree in gamification, it’s not just about the quick gimmicks that get you to a quick result, which it can, you know, extrinsic rewards. If only extrinsic rewards only get you quick results that are not necessarily lasting for a longer period. You talk about the, not the old, the intrinsic motivation and doing it for the long run. Can you give us, you know, we probably discussed this in previous episode, but can you give the audience again a reminder of, what do you mean when you’re talking about this? What is it that is, you know, what is it? Why is it intrinsic? Why is it longer lasting? What do you mean by when you’re talking about these things and non scenario and all that stuff?

Roman Rackwitz:
Yeah, sure. I mean, no question that how to create motivation or how to help people to achieve motivation to experience motivation, how to create design, engaging products, processes, working environments, whatever. That’s a question that we have for centuries. Right? Every time you want to get someone to do something with you. You think about, how could I do that? And I think what we are already very deep into over the last few centuries, what we have figured out, where is a lot of research being done and what is being tested, crazy often is the extrinsic part. So where you say, if you do this, then you will get that or with punishment. So the carrot and stick approach, to make it very simple, this is the classic motivational approach that you can find all over the world. Why? Because it’s so easy. I mean, come on, everyone who has kids, who knows what I’m talking about, right? And of course it would be amazing to argue with my kid about why he should clean his room. I mean, I know that. Yeah, but do I have the time? Do I really want to do that? Is he already open for that kind of argument? Or. Probably not. So it’s not the only solution. And there are particular conditions, but there are particular conditions where it’s enough. Okay, so for example, and there’s a lot of research being done around that stuff, is that if we are, for example, if people are working at the production line, so the job is already designed, what you have to do is already decided on. Okay, so the production line, so it’s, you have to, so in that kind of case, you don’t have to think, at least you shouldn’t think, right? So at a production line, you don’t want to have someone who thinks about, oh, I wonder what would happen if I do it this way. No, please, no, it’s, then you’re destroying the old efficiency game in a production line. So in that kind of area, extrinsic reward systems are the most effective ones you can have. This is proven by science. Yeah. The one with the highest reward. Who can get the highest reward will probably not always, but probably perform most effective in that kind of environment. And that’s fine. And do you know what I mean? Look back over the last 250 years, the industrialization age, this is exactly the environment where we put people in. It’s industrialization, it’s production, it’s only efficiency in the output. So everything is already desired. And now please do what you have to do and don’t do anything else. Don’t think, just do it. Tedious mechanical work.

Rob:
And I’m going to have a small incision here. Yeah, I completely agree with you. Although, although if you talk to Toyota, and this dates back to the eighties, right? And their lean production system, they wanted their workers to execute and all that for sure, but they also empower their workers into thinking about what the small improvements and the small stuff, they could make things better. And that’s one of the keys that Toyota was able to not only innovate, but beyond innovate, actually be further, more productive and more lean and all these things. That’s kind of a specific lean Toyota approach the way that they did. And many companies have picked that up lately. So there might be a little bit of thinking even within those schemes. However, when there is some innovation involved, as you were saying, it starts changing. The research is not as, as strict cut and straightforward as you just said.

Roman Rackwitz:
The question is, and you’re totally right, the question is, and I have no answer to that, to be honest, is did the actual incentive system in that kind of environment stay as effective as it was before without them being allowed to think lean? You know what I mean? So that would be interesting, but I have no answer to that. And so, I mean, this is what extrinsic is and extrinsic does, okay, do this and you will get that classic. And that’s perfect. The problem is it doesn’t seem to work anymore. And then now the question is why? And I mean, companies are especially looking for other ways to engage people. I mean if it would, if it would, if it would be working, then we wouldn’t have problems, right? So, but it doesn’t seem to work anymore.

Rob:
So, and then motivation engagement problems would not be arising nowadays.

Roman Rackwitz:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So what changed actually, and I mean, the job changed most often. Right now it’s about your cognitive capacity capability. Sorry, your cognitive capability. So now it’s not about that. The business profit doesn’t come anymore from efficiency in the output, but more about how do you solve the problem. Innovative. It’s about services. Every product has to be done in a slightly different way because of customization. So you have to find a way as a to do it. You have to use resources in a different way than before. Whatever, okay? Now you have to think about stuff. And this is the other part of the research, that it’s proven that extrinsic incentive systems in that kind of environment harm, do harm, okay? And that’s pretty easy to imagine because if you think, if you know that, okay, you’re here in the beginning, you’re an a and you want to go to b, okay, this is the output and you will get a reward. If you are achieving b, then your brain is actually looking at the most direct way to be, okay? So the problem is, if I want you to think about stuff the most direct way, is not the way to go. You have to go left and right, whatever, but you don’t want to do that because you want to have the reward at b. So that’s the problem with that kind of system. And there’s another research. I mean, of course it’s complex, but one more to make it a little bit more complex is that now if you want to create, to be effective in innovation, people need in cognitive capabilities and to in peak performance. Talking about your cognitive skills, now we are talking about something that’s called growth mindset. And there’s also being done amazing research about, okay, in what kind of conditions and circumstances does a growth mindset arises when is a human being able to achieve a growth mindset? Everyone is capable of doing that. The point is, it’s not about the human, it’s about the conditions he’s in. And what they found out is that the most effective conditions in getting people into the growth mindset is doing something like playing games and doing sports or doing your hobby. So what do these kind of activities have in common that they are so good in creating a growth mindset? Hmm. I can tell you one, they don’t have extrinsic reward systems. And so this is what this is, in short, the stuff where I think that we still try to run a totally changed system from Asda industrial society into our innovation society with the old rule set and the old principles like extrinsic ruler system, for example. We still have this old thinking in mind that people want to have it fast, easy and want to be rewarded.

Rob:
That’s true within telling me I cannot get rich overnight. That’s what you’re telling me.

Roman Rackwitz:
Sorry about that. Yeah. And so if you think about that, I mean, and this is where really my brain blows off sometimes. And this is what I don’t get about our industry. I mean, we all talking about gamification. So why is it called gamification? Because we take my. So this is, okay, perhaps there are different opinions about that, but I think it’s called gamification because we are taking games as a role model for creating engaging situations. So if it would be really the case that people want to have it easy, fast and being rewarded, let me tell you that playing games would be the stupidest, stupidest thing to do, okay? Because it’s getting harder. There’s no one waiting at the finish line to reward you afterwards and you hate it when it’s ended, okay? You want to have it long term.

Rob:
And so, I mean, Jane McGonagall, it’s a quote I love. You know, it’s. It’s about making something that is straightforward. Making, putting all the obstacles. You know, you’re, you’re voluntarily. I don’t. I’m blowing up what I said on my talk, on my TEdx. My Tedx. But, you know, it’s exactly about making something that is. Go from a to b. You make. No, no. You know, don’t go from a to b. You go from a to z to b. A set of unnecessary obstacles, and you’re voluntarily going through those obstacles because you want to. So if we can bring that to something else, then, well, you know, it could be interesting because. And it’s interesting. I had never heard it that way. Like, it’s not like before. It’s, oh, we need to get you from a to b. And that’s it. You know, well, just make it as fast as you can. Run as fast as you can. Well, here, it’s not about getting from a to b. You don’t even sometimes know what’s b. Yeah, exactly. So how do I get there?

Roman Rackwitz:
That’s a good point. Right. And there’s also, it’s not, it’s not so old, but there’s also a lot of research being done about, from the neuroscience sector in this, about dopamine, for example. It’s an amazing book called dopamine Nation. I really recommend that. And there’s a lot of other kind of research being done. But what they have figured out is if you have an activity that you don’t like, okay, let’s say on a scale from zero to 1010 is you love it. Zero. You hate it. Okay? And you ask someone, hey, I mean, you’re doing the job right now for half a year here at our company. How do you like it? And you say, oh, it’s a six. So. And then I would say, oh, really? It’s a six. Oh, I’m sorry about that. Do you know what? I really appreciate that you’re doing that. Here’s an incentive for that. The problem is, and now if you ask the same guy again, how would you rate the activity? Before he said six. Now he has an amazing reward. Now he says eight because compared to the exciting reward, the activity seems to be even more annoying because he just want to have the reward and the activity stands in your way. I mean, this is some kind of stuff that science knows but industries ignore. Totally. And I think it’s the responsibility of gamification history to educate them.

Rob:
Totally. Totally. Love it. Love it. And I think you said eight, but you meant four or three or something because it’s less, you hate it more than before, right? It was from six to something else. As you said, initially you think it’s six, they give you a reward. Now it’s lessen, rob, bank.

Roman Rackwitz:
It happens.

Rob:
It happens, man. You’re, I mean, you’re an expert in doing lives, so I’m sure this has happened not one, but a thousand times before. I, that, you know, I do lives, of course I do conferences and these things. But it’s different, right? It’s different, yeah. I was just wanted to make sure I did, I did get it. I did understand what you were saying.

Roman Rackwitz:
Paying attention. Yeah, that’s good.

Rob:
Cool. No, I love it. I love it. Because one of the things, and I talk about this with a completely different example, when they talk about the kid who loves drawing and suddenly the parent says, oh, I’m going to give you a cent for every picture. And then it’s like, oh, well, but how about two cent? And then eventually you say, well, look, I’m going to go broke. This kid’s already asking for a dollar or a euro, whatever you’re into. Every time he makes a painting, I have to stop. And if you stop, what happens? You murdered essentially the intrinsic motivation with the extrinsic came in, slashed it over and you killed it. And now there’s no intrinsic. The six was probably because there was something interesting and interest intrinsically interesting about the job. And then you said, oh, you know what, you need to get paid more or you’re going to get this thing. It’s like, okay, I don’t care anymore about this. Give me the reward and next time I need a bigger one, right. Or at least, at least the same reward I needed, again, for sure, which is not to say, and this is something that I do get some, especially from. You work in german markets a lot and international markets. But I come from Latin America, I’m here in Spain and I come from Latin America as well. So I have a lot of latin american friends. And some people sometimes say, yeah, yeah, but you’re saying that. But the problem is people just literally don’t get paid enough. That’s a completely separate problem. Right. We’re talking about when somebody is having a fair payment. You know, there’s a range within whatever is fair. When your needs are sufficiently satisfied, there is a range there that, you know, you’re not no longer interested. It’s not that you’re not interested in the money, but it’s, you know, there is something beyond that. And that’s where, you know, they talk about the millennials. I’m supposed to be a millennial. And then Gen Z. We’re looking for purpose. We’re looking for something that goes beyond just, you know, surviving and doing the work for the company. And then, you know, whatever, there’s something more that we might be looking. They talk about purpose. That’s one of the things that at least I like to talk about when I’m talking in gamification. But there’s other things and there’s that intrinsic motivation. If I’m here because at least I kind of want to be here, I’m not forced to be here because there’s a, you know, there’s a sword here that if I quit, I’m done and my life is over. Right.

Roman Rackwitz:
That’s, I mean, you just said it. That’s an important part. The thing is, I mean, all, all generations are looking for purpose. I mean, now the interesting thing is, what would, what is purpose, really? Right. But I think there’s all, purpose has nothing to do with the ideal world. I’m building it. But that’s another topic. No, but I think is now we, our generation and the next one, they have the luxury to think about, do I belong here? It doesn’t mean that our grandparents didn’t want to do that, but they had less possibilities.

Rob:
But yeah, that’s another, the world is different. I used to talk about, you know, there’s, again, I come from Venezuela. I come from a country that is formally, you know, when they talk about third world countries, well, we’re really there maybe getting to fourth at some point if things continue to go the way they’re going. I used to talk about, you know, that’s, that sounds like a first world problem, right? Sometimes you heard some things and people are saying, oh, I had a friend, I’ll never forget it was a friend who was actually homonymous. His name is Robert as well. And he asked me, and this was probably 20 years ago. So what do you guys think about climate change? Back in Venezuela, I was like, I know, like, I’m educated. I’ve been around and I’ve looked at things, but we don’t think about it like, it’s not right, it’s not wrong. We still think about it. There’s, there’s, and here we get more back, more to more basics and the pyramid of needs and all that. It’s true. Like when, when, again, I was talking about salaries, but this goes for other things as well. When some of the things are not being meth, the problems look different. You know, it’s not that global warming and all these things are not problems. They’re just in a different scale. They’re just in 20 years and some people are thinking about how do I get food for the next week? Right. It’s different. It’s just different.

Roman Rackwitz:
Yeah. It’s just not relevant at this moment.

Rob:
Yeah. When you were at war, like many of our grandparents. Right. Or great grandparents as well, you’re at war like you’re thinking about survival and you get out of war and you still have a part of that mentality out there. It’s like, well, you know, whether this is the industry trying to save the world from pollution or not is not as important right now. It’s not still that important for our generations and some of the countries we have that, as you were saying, that luxury, we can still think about that kind of purpose. But we’re completely. Go ahead, go ahead. I just don’t want to off rail this conversation.

Roman Rackwitz:
I mean this is, we are already talking about human psychology here. Right. Because so we have the luxury to talk about it. If it comes to the behavior to change something, it doesn’t matter. We are not doing it. It’s still, there’s a difference between, and this is also something I think is very important for the gamification industry is there’s a difference between what people want and what do they like. Okay, so we are talking about what, I want to have a more secure world. I want to have a healthy planet. But it doesn’t mean that we like to do the stuff that’s necessary for that. And so this is something where we already realize that it’s a difference between what we, let’s say what we can, our, what we can, how we can force ourselves into doing something because we think we should do it. And the other one is what just makes it naturally for us to behave in a particular way. And this is the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic. I mean, if I give you a million dollar right now, you can’t force yourself to be more creative. It’s not possible. You can force yourself to try harder. Right. But you can force yourself to be. But if I create circumstances that makes it easier for your brain to reach the state of growth mindset, suddenly you are more creative without any kind of extrinsic incentive. And it’s exactly the same problem that we have of behavior change when it comes to climate problems or anything else. And we have to educate more about that.

Rob:
Yeah. And it’s hard. It’s hard. So, Roman, this has been super interesting. I love these conversations. I love the format of the podcast, asking the normal questions, hearing about what people do, but also having these different episodes where we talk about other things and dive deeper into some of the subjects. I think, you know, whether you’re start, you started yesterday, and you listen to this conversation, and it’s like, whoa, this whole new world just opened up. I heard gaynification. I heard these two or three, you know, leaderboards and points and badges, right? But now I hear this. It’s super interesting as well, right? Should I dive here? Should I look at the other stuff? Or whether you’re on a typical episode where we’re talking about, you know, pros and cons and all these things. I think. I think there’s always value in people that I can find in different things. So, Romaya, I did want to ask, we were discussing recently, as I said before, with Bernardo, about Tabi. So I wanted to spend, even if just a couple of minutes, getting your insights into. Again, it’s whether you want to sell a bit software or not. That’s fine by me, but it’s more about how did you guys, especially from your perspective, what took you there? I know Bernardo mentioned that tabby means journey in japanese, if I’m not getting it wrong, because you wanted to talk about the journey, and it sounds already intrinsic. What’s up with that? Like, what will led you guys there from your perspective, as you.

Roman Rackwitz:
The point is, what, what got us there is the thing that everyone is talking about. Mechanics in GAAP, right? And then mechanics, most often they are talking about the stuff that you can see on the screen.

Rob:
Yeah.

Roman Rackwitz:
So if there wasn’t some kind of games before the entertainment industry. So. But I. That’s another point. But, so they talk about, I don’t know, coins, avatar leaderboards, as you said, funny stuff, fancy looking, whatever. And the thing is that, as I said, from my point of perspective, I’m looking at intrinsic motivation, starting with evolution. So from. I learned most about intrinsic motivation from evolutionary biology. And. And so the question was always, okay, what’s the common, the least common denominator of everything that we are doing? Volunteer voluntarily just for the sake of doing it. Okay. And my, my core categories for that are games, sports, and hobbies. Just in general, of course, you can name different stuff or whatever, but especially playing games and, and doing your hobbies, that this is what, what really fascinates me. And if you look at them, these common denominator, what all of them have in common if you’re doing them for long term, of course I’m not interested. If you play a game, you play it for just to, I don’t know, to spend some time, 2 hours, and then you’re not never touching it again. This is something I’m not talking about. I’m talking about if you’re doing something for years. And from my point of view, what the least common denominator is that it’s always a journey that unfolds in front of you over time, depending on your decisions. Okay, so if you’re starting a hobby and you’re, let’s say you start playing an instrument.

Rob:
Yeah.

Roman Rackwitz:
So you just try to get the first two tones. Do you say tones? I don’t know. Yeah. Correctly?

Rob:
I have no idea. It’s been a long time since I.

Roman Rackwitz:
Did anything in music. So, for example, I can’t know the vocabulary. But let’s say if you, if you’re doing, if your hobby is building airplanes, little models of airplanes, so you’re getting the first one and it’s a pretty easy one, probably, right? So someone is giving it to your grandma, whatever. So it’s, it only has 20 pieces. You can put them together and then it looks very nice and you think, hey, I like that, your curiosity. Oh, it makes fun. Oh, I got this. Oh, amazing. I like that. I like another. You don’t buy the same one again. But that would be the most efficient way. I’m wondering why no one is doing that. So you’re buying another one, right. It’s perhaps a little bit more pieces or now you have to glue it, not just to put it together, or you have to color it, whatever. So the point is, the idea behind my example is as you go forward, because of what you achieved with the first model, you know that. Okay, I’m trying this one. And if it’s too hard, you go back. If it’s too easy, you get the next one. That’s harder. It’s a journey. And depending on, let’s say, your experience with the model, because let’s say you realize that, oh, I’m really good at coloring, perhaps then you’re going to a model that needs a lot more coloring and you try to be more realistic. Whatever. If you are less into coloring, but let’s say you like to build more sceneries, then you’re much more into this kind of diorama, I think it’s called where you have scenes where you’re building whole scenes. Okay. And so what I mean by that is, and this is the same in a lot of games, if we are playing the same game, even if we are playing it through. Okay, you finishing the end, boss? I’m finishing him. Probably. We haven’t done it the same way. So we have got different kind of ways because we’re using resources in different ways. Whatever. So it’s often, it’s a journey that unfolds in front of you over time, depending on our decisions and actions. And. But what’s the re. The really important thing here is that the journey is balanced to, so that it’s not too easy and not too hard. So, and if I want to create something that’s intrinsically engaging, like games or hobbies, I think this is the core principle of doing it. So if I want to, let’s say, if I want to intrinsic motivate people to stay longer as an employee with a company, and this is a real example, then, for example, let’s say the company decides that we want our people to stay at least for five, six years here with all the education we need this time so that it makes sense for us. But most often, people are quitting after. That’s the standard. The average time people are working in the industry and this position is three years, for example. Okay, so how can we expand it two or three more years? So then we are thinking about. If we say, and you already mentioned one rule, okay, what? Trying to voluntarily overcome unnecessary obstacles. Right? That’s from Bernard Sui. So if, if this is true, and this is true, I’m totally convinced about that. Research is showing that, and our work for 15 years is showing for showing that. And it’s. And we have the second principle, that it’s a journey that unfolds in front of you over time, depending on the decisions. We have to find a way not just to design your employee lifetime cycle within a company this way, so that there is always something where you can go. There is always something where you have to take a decision. A meaningful decision has consequences. And, you know, okay, this is why I went here. Because then you’re looking back and you see, oh, it made sense that I’m staying here in the company. They making me better, okay. And I need something. And it doesn’t matter if we are talking about the employee lifetime cycle or a customer lifetime cycle through a software or through a portfolio, whatever. But the only thing is, it’s long term. Okay. I’m not thinking about, okay, I only want you to buy it once and then I try again how I get you to buy it. But if you think in the whole lifetime cycle of a customer, then it could be that you say, oh, if I don’t get him to maximize the cartoon size right now, I can increase the probability of him coming back in a shorter period of time. And we are creating some kind of relation and blah, blah, blah, this time, this way we are creating a customer life of time. And so we need something like a software technology, we need a tool where we can help people realize that they are going through a journey that’s unfolding in front of them over time, the benefit of their decisions, right? And so this is, this was the starting point of tabby, or let’s say in the beginning. This was the starting point of a concept around that. And this was also when I came up with that. This was also the time when NFTs became more famous. And the point is, I never, I never looked at NFts like something that’s visualized, like art or whatever. What I was fascinated about NFTs is that I’m, from a technological point of view, I can intervene this kind of item with a person so that it’s not, that you can’t separate them anymore, right, because of the technology. So I can always prove it’s mine. And now imagine, and it’s possible by now, but now imagine you can create an NFT that’s dynamic and that can grow with you. And then suddenly you have this kind of, because of the technology, you also have this kind of psychological effect that you own it, it’s yours. It’s like building up an avatar in a game. But now I can translate it into real world activities. And this is something that I was really fascinated by. And this is what I introduced to Bernardo. And as you already said, bernardo is the coder. He has a totally different point of view on that most often are much more practical, realistic one that I have. And Bernardo was the only guy I told from my industry, I told about that, I told about the idea to some customers and just to get some kind of feedback. But Bernardo was the only guy in my industry where I thought that two things. The first one is I trust him, I just trust him. We know each other for a few years now and for some years now, and I trust him. And the other one is that I know that we have a very similar school of thought, philosophical thinking about gaefecation. And so I showed it to him, he gave me amazing feedback. And yeah, suddenly we said, okay, let’s do it. And this is how I get started. But we did it on the side.

Rob:
Yeah.

Roman Rackwitz:
So it took some time it does.

Rob:
And that’s. I mean, that’s the beauty of side projects in many ways, I have to say, professor game was very much of a side project for most of its current life. Right now, I’m more dedicated. I’m doing the consulting, I’m creating courses, I’m doing stuff. But for most of its life, it was a side project. It was just money dump. I was throwing money at having an account to publish my podcast. I never did it on the free sites. I wanted to make sure I owned it, didn’t know what the future came for it, but I wanted to make sure I was just putting money there, essentially, and having a webpage and all these things. Not super expensive, don’t get me wrong, but it was, you know, it was just something I was investing time on. Yeah, but we’re here. We’re here. We’re still here. Roman, thank you very much for that. These deep conversations. There’s not too many people I’ve had these conversations with, but I think I should be having more of these. And they’re probably going to be repeat guests like yourself. They’re going to continue to be, continue to be this way. Again, Roman, thank you for investing your time on this, as, I mean, if you’ve been doing this for 15 years, that means you have at whatever level that is a successful business going on. So taking away time for this, for sharing your ideas, your insights, all this inspiration you’ve given us today is very, very much appreciated here on the podcast and by our listeners, the engagers. However, Roman, engagers, as you know, we’ve spent a little bit more on the visual episodes than before, which I love. I’m loving this format as well, but at least for now. Oh, no, actually, before we go, do you want to lead us anywhere? Do you want to tell us where we can see more of your work? I don’t know. Any call to action anywhere on the Internet you can show us, again, more work, where to contact you. I don’t know, whatever you want to go for.

Roman Rackwitz:
Oh, thanks, I appreciate that. I think if you go to my LinkedIn page and then there’s a button, what does it say in English? In German it says portfolio show, portfolio, whatever. If you go there, then you come to a webpage where there are different kind of stuff that you can, for example, register for. Like I ever twelve part mini email series about non scenario and gamification where this one is explained. So if you register for that, you will get over a period of 24 days, twelve mini emails explaining a little bit what it is. What’s the difference to classic gamification? There you can find, what are the webinars that we are giving for free? The book you can register for the waiting list for the book that I’m writing right now. And this is some of the most extrinsic motivation that I can get people showing interest. So I think this would be the easiest place to go to find more.

Rob:
Sounds fantastic. Thanks again, Roman, for this, for the work that you’re doing, for pushing forward. I mean, not too many people have been doing this and you were saying that, you know, doing this for many years. I, when I got started, there were so many people that put on their LinkedIn gamification, expert gamification, whatever, right? I love the fact that there’s very, well, relatively few people left that do this. And it means that since the wave of, you know, this is popular on the Internet and if I put it there, I’m going to get a better SEO or whatever these people were thinking this is over, right? So people were doing it at least have a better chance of actually be doing or trying to do something good for the industry. And you’ve been there through those full 15 years. So thanks again for all that work, Roman. Thank you for being here today and investing your time with us. However, engagers. And Roman, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. Hey engagers, and thank you for listening to the professor game podcast. And since you are into gamification and game inspired solutions, how about you go into the free gamification that we have for you? Just go to professorgame.com freegamificationcourse all in one word, professorgame.com freegamificationcourse and get started today for free. After that, we will also be in contact and you will be the first to know of any opportunities that professor game might have for you. And remember, before you go onto your next mission, before you click continue, please remember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of Professor Game. See you there.

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