The Simple Games that Win with Adrian Hon of Zombies, Run! | Episode 146

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Adrian Hon is co-founder and CEO at Six to Start, creators of gamelike stories and story-like games including the world’s bestselling smartphone fitness game, “Zombies, Run!” with four million players. Six to Start’s clients have included Disney, the BBC, Channel 4, and Penguin, and the company has won multiple awards including Best of Show at SXSW.

Adrian is author of A History of the Future in 100 Objects, has spoken at the flagship TED conference, the Long Now, Google, and Mozilla, and has written a column about technology for the Telegraph. He originally trained as a neuroscientist at Cambridge, UCSD, and Oxford.

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Full episode transcription

Rob (5s):
Welcome to Professor Game podcast, where we interview successful practitioners of games, gamification and game thinking who bring us the best of their experiences to get ideas, insights, and inspiration, to help us in the process of getting the students to learn what we teach. And I’m Rob Alvarez. I teach and work at IE Business School in Madrid, where we create interactive and engaging learning materials. Want to know more? Go to, start on our email list and ask me anything!

Rob (35s):
Engagers welcome to another edition of the Professor Game Podcast. And today we have a very special guest, but Adrian, before we get started, are you prepared to engage?

Adrian (48s):
Oh sure. Yeah.

Rob (50s):
Let’s do this. It’s Adrian Hon. He is the co founder and CEO at six to start. They are the creators of game-like stories and story like games, including the world’s best selling smartphone, fitness games, Zombies, Run! with 4 million players. Their clients have included Disney, the BBC channel four and Penguin, and the company has won multiple awards, including best of show at South by Southwest. He’s an author of a history of the fortune in 100 objects. He has spoken to the flagship Ted conference. The Long Now Google and Mozilla has written a column about technology for the Telegraph.

Rob (1m 24s):
And he was originally trained as a neuroscientist at Cambridge UCSD and Oxford. Is there anything from that intro, Adrian, that we’re missing?

Adrian (1m 35s):
That’s a lot but I think it covers the highlights? Yeah.

Rob (1m 36s):
Fantastic. So Adrian, we always like to get to know our guests a bit more and we’d like to know, you know, whether it’s in these times of pandemic pre that or what you’re planning to your days to be after this whole thing goes on. What is a day a week? How does your being Adrian Hon have a day like today?

Adrian (1m 52s):
Well, Six to Start has been a fully remote company for a couple of years actually. So, you know, going into lockdown, it didn’t really change my day to day routine. I work from home. We have staff around the world, you know, in Japan, Australia, America, across Europe. And so, you know, my day on the face of it looks the same now as it did six months ago, which is to say, you know, I’llget up, get on to company team systems like Slack, Notion and Google docs and so on around 9.

Adrian (2m 31s):
Check up on what people have been up to. Will, have already been working for a few hours at that point. So I want to make sure that they have what they need. Then, checking through Social media checking through support and sort of our analytics for Zombies, Run! that’s hundreds of thousands of people playing and we just wanna make sure that everything is looking healthy.

Adrian (3m 2s):
Then making sure that people in the company have what they need. I think one of the main roles of running a company and being a producer is making sure that, you know, the staff have everything they need to execute really well. And I think that a lot of people, you know, sort of think that when you’re a manager, you have people working for you, which is true, but you’re also working for them and that’s how great teams work. And so that’s really important to me. So a lot of communication in that way. And you know, if there’s any time after that, then I’ll be doing my own work as well. So that’s what, what my day looks like. And I try, I really try and sort of stick to actually a nine to five.

Adrian (3m 35s):
You know, there are a lot of people who worked longer hours. I used to work long hours, but I find that if you want to keep this sort of thing sustainable, then you need to be pretty strict about a work-life balance

Rob (3m 47s):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and there’s times for everything, I guess that there’s people who are more sort of, you can call it the hustle stage, or you’re still at the stage where you’re doing. Like, I can tell you how, like, as though I had multiple jobs, I’m working, I’m teaching, I’m doing the podcast and related issues. So for me, it’s a bit more crazy, but I try to do the sort of, I block it out. And that makes a lot of sense as far as it’s possible. And I do agree with you completely, that, you know, sort of fixing that time that you’re going to work doesn’t mean you’re working less, it actually sort of forces you into being productive enough to make all the things that you need to get done.

Rob (4m 25s):
So I like that philosophy. Absolutely. And Adrian, we would like to know of a, of a story of a time when, you know, you set out to do something using these story games or these games stories, and you know, you try to do this, it didn’t go the way you wanted it to sort of sync things, sort of went South. And what did you do about it? How did you come out of it? Like we want to hear the story. We want to be there with you to feel that

Adrian (4m 47s):
Well, you know, Six to Start, we used to be a more of a digital agency, you know, we would do work for clients and you know, that would be consulting work or even developing apps or games or that sort of thing. And some of those we’re award winning and some of those were good or okay. And some of those were, you know, close to being catastrophically bad. And those are very rare occasions thankfully, you know, in the case of where things went really wrong, then we tried to be as honest as possible with the people working with and saying, okay, well here’s, here’s, what’s gone wrong.

Adrian (5m 26s):
Here’s how we think we can fix it. And you know, obviously I don’t really want to get bogged down in sort of recrimination, I guess when something goes wrong, you know, there’s not really a lot of point in assigning blame if something has gone wrong and that’s affecting a lot of people, it’s really very much focused on how do we fix things and limit the damage. You know, back when we launched Zombies, Run!, we funded on Kickstarter and we pre-sold copies of the app. And the idea would be that if you were a backer on Kickstarter, then you would receive the special code.

Adrian (5m 60s):
And if you use that code on our free app in Zombies, Run! from the app store, then you would unlock the app. So the funny thing is, we talked to someone at Apple beforehand and checked whether this would be okay. And they said, yes, in writing. And a couple of months after Zombies, Run! came out, I got a call from someone at Apple saying, you know what you’re doing? That’s against Terms of Service. You can’t do that. I said, okay, now you never want to receive a call from Apple. I think I’ve had, I’ve had a number of calls from Apple.

Adrian (6m 31s):
Only one of them has been good, the rest have been bad. So you just don’t really want to hear from them. And they said, you can’t do that. You got to stop doing it. And I said, well, you know, you told us that this will be okay. And anyway, they sort of went quiet for a bit and they could tell they were sort of investigating on their own. And that person who told us it would be okay, apparently is not really in a position to say that. And so they said, okay, well, it’s been the son of the stomach, but you still have to stop doing that.

Adrian (7m 1s):
And we had to email, you know, few thousand and 500 of all of our backers on Kickstarter and say, well, long story short, you’re gonna have to re-buy Zombies, Run! Basically, the thing that you thought you paid for, you got to buy it. And we discounted it to like $1 or something. And we said, you know, we’re really sorry about this, but here’s how we’re going to do it. And we’re going to give you like a voucher and, you know, try and make it through it. And people were very understanding. I mean, in that case, they sort of knew what wasn’t our fault. It was just like Apple’s fault, but that was a moment, you know, that, well, we just thought, well, this is the end.

Adrian (7m 36s):
This is going to be, this is going to be huge, huge problem. And so, you know, that problem did not stop Zombies, Run! from being a popular product or success, but it was something that we had to kind of act very quickly about and to communicate really clearly about it as well. And to make sure I first felt, you know, if I’m happy about what we’re doing.

Rob (8m 0s):
Absolutely. And I’m, I’m sure that, you know, given the success that you’ve had after that there’s many lessons you took from that situation. Is there anything that you would have done maybe differently, of course not knowing that what their end result was, but that, that there, there was a risk of this. Is there anything you would have tried to do differently maybe on the initial communication? Like what, what were your, what’s the lesson that you took away from that?

Adrian (8m 21s):
You know, the, I don’t think I would have done anything differently, but I would have reacted different, which is to say we have throughout the years and even, you know, fairly recently, you know, we’ve had problems in things we’ve done that affect our customers that affect our players. Right. And now that I’ve been running a company for 13 years and Zombies, Run! has been out for like eight or nine years, you just are able to sort of have a bit more perspective on this stuff.

Adrian (8m 50s):
Right. Which is to say, you can have a very bad day and you gotta have a very bad week, but it’s still not the end of the world. And there’s no point catastrophizing. And I think one of the things I’ve been able to do for the team is to say, look, this feels bad and it is bad right now, but you should have seen what it was like five years ago your hair, would be on fire. So, you know, we’ve been in much stickier situations and if it happened again, now I’d be like, well, this is bad, but we’re going to get through it. Cause people gone through it.

Rob (9m 20s):
There you go. There you go with that resilience. And, you know, especially in these times where we’re going through all the difficulties that many people personally and, and financially are going through, it’s… I especially like that message right now. And shifting gears here and going actually for a situation where you faced a big challenge. And of course you used all these strategies, all these lessons that you’ve taken and, you know, you solved it, using it, using these, these games, stories, these, these story-like games as well. How did you do it? Like what, what would you attribute at least a part of that success to?

Adrian (9m 52s):
You mean Zombies, Run? What is a sort of those behind success to that, or, or sort of…?

Rob (9m 57s):
Yeah, it could be Zombies, Run! or any other story again, I know you have clients who have NDAs and so on, but whatever you can reveal is fantastic.

Adrian (10m 5s):
The thing that I’ve always been really focused on when it comes to designing games is just trying to think very hard about what people will be doing with it and whether it’s going to be useful. And that sounds, I don’t know, that sounds kind of like trite, but I guess, you know, again, well, Zombies, Run! it’s our most successful game. We are not the first people to have come up with a running game on smartphones. There were like a few before us, not hundreds, but a few.

Adrian (10m 36s):
And you know, if you looked at them, if you look at the screenshots, some of them still look pretty cool now. You know, they have like a top down view of a map and they have treasure that you had go and run over the treasure to pick it up, you know, and it’s GPS-based and location-based. And you look at that, you think, wow, that’s kind of even more sophisticated in some ways than Zombies, Run! and, you know, I’ve played all these, I think it’s important to play, you know, and to do your research and look at the competition. And I thought I’m never going to use this more than once, because if you are a runner, you know, you don’t want to be looking at your phone when you’re running just full stop, like runners do not look at their phones when running.

Adrian (11m 12s):
Go outside to a park and you can watch people. And they are not on their phones. Walkers, maybe? Yeah. But not runners, because people have boots. And so I think that one of the things that has been helpful for me is that, you know, we use game mechanics and we use games and we use stories to create these things that help people do what they want to do. But my primary identity is not a gamer. Right. And I think this is a problem for a lot of game designers where they kind of think that everything should be a game and all game mechanics ure good, and everyone would be gamer If only they had a chance.

Adrian (11m 50s):
If you are in that kind of mindset, then having a running game where you’re looking at a map on your phone, and you’re sort of dodging around invisible zombies and picking up treasure down shady alleyways that you normally wouldn’t go down. So you probably think, wow, this is like a really fun game. But if you’re just like a runner, you think I just don’t want to go down that dodgy alleyway. Right. And so I think it’s a really important skill to be able to put yourself in the shoes of, you know, not necessarily normal people, but of people who you want to, maybe someone who’s a little bit less fanatical about whatever it is that you’re doing, you know, and I’m thinking, okay, well, how can I ease him into this?

Adrian (12m 32s):
That’s my that’s one of the things that’s always been very helpful for me.

Rob (12m 35s):
Absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. And would you say that the difference for you at least, of course, in your experience from Zombies, Run! to many of these other game running apps, would you say it’s a, it’s a sort of attributable at least a part, a big part of it to that mindset to, to thinking about this differently?

Adrian (12m 52s):
Absolutely. I mean, I’ve met a lot of great designers out there and, you know, we’ve competed against some of our games or, you know, in our pitches for funding and they want to come up with something that sounds really good, you know, in bullet points on a description or on a press release. And I’m kind of like, now that’s important. Like you need to be able to sell the game and need to sound cool, but it’s more important that the game is actually good. And I think that people like really like lose sight of that, you know, I remember I first got into gaming through alternate reality games that was sort of the first game that I got paid to make.

Adrian (13m 32s):
And that was really fun. And alternate reality games are becoming kind of fashionable now, mostly because of bad reasons, like juvenile and the conspiracy theories. But anyway, alternate reality games are really fascinating because they sort of feel immersive and they sort of take over the world and take over the internet. But one of the problems is that they’re quite, it can be quite hard to get into, you know, they’re quite peak, quite hard to explain to people. And so after I finished making that alternate reality game, I wanted to do something the complete opposite, which was like something that would be fun, like five seconds after you start playing 30 seconds after you start playing three minutes after you start playing.

Adrian (14m 7s):
And I think that’s something that is just a really kind of, not every game, that we’ve done is like that. But I think it’s a really interesting kind of like prison. Through which to think about games, there’s no reason why a game couldn’t be fun three seconds after you start playing a few tap on the icon. Like you could do that. It’s a bit harder, but I think that’s what games are meant to be. They’re meant to be fun. And I think a lot of people get a little bit carried away with technology.

Rob (14m 31s):
Absolutely. And you’ve been talking partially about this, but when you’re going to design one of these games that you, that you create, do you have some sort of process? I don’t know. How do you, whether it’s a brain, I don’t know. I don’t know how you do it. If it’s a brainstorm or whatever, when you were facing, you’re going to create a game. Like, what goes through your mind? Who do you meet? Like, what do you do when going to face one of these challenges?

Adrian (14m 53s):
So this is, I mean, your mileage may vary, right? I don’t have a process at all. I don’t do any brainstorming. I don’t have any charts or anything. We don’t do brainstorming meetings. We’ll talk about it. And people who know me will know that I come up with some new game idea, approximately two to three times a year. It’s usually clockwork. And I, I fall in love with it. You know, I’m like, this is going to be the best game ever. We should drop everything now and just make this game. It’s going to be amazing. And I’ll write up like 2000 words on it and I’ll play all these games and I’ll think about it.

Adrian (15m 27s):
And I’ll be like, you know what? I’m not that interested. You know, we’ll move on to the next thing. Right? And I love just talking to people about it and I love exploring what it can be. And I love thinking about, okay, what kind of technologies we would use and making it, right, how pragmatic could it be? Because, you know, ultimately in these sort of achieve some goals and that doesn’t necessarily need to be making money. Maybe we just learn something from it, but we want it to be, to be successful in some ways.

Adrian (15m 58s):
And I dunno, like, I think for me personally, it’s, you know, I’ve, I’ve never, you know, I think a lot of people want there to be a lot of structure around how they come up with ideas. And that’s not something that I have found to be terribly useful myself. And that’s not to say it wouldn’t be useful for other people, but I think there’s a bit of a fetishization of a process of coming of ideas. And I just think that if you look at the sort of wider world of how people come with ideas, for books, for movies, you know, for games, for any kind of creative work, there’s a much wider diversity of ways in which people do that.

Adrian (16m 35s):
And there are probably some amazing games, amazing movies to come out with, like the come out traditional brainstorming sessions or, or, you know, I don’t know, wearing different hats, Edward de Bono, or these things that, you know, people like doing. And, and there are other people who just shut themselves up, you know, an attic for two weeks and they come out and here’s, here’s a design document. And then we’re just gonna use that, you know, you know, you should do what you enjoy, you should do what works for you. But yeah,

Rob (17m 4s):
Absolutely. So it’s interesting. And I agree that there’s different ways and that’s, that’s one of the reasons I like to make this question of how do people come up with these game ideas and I’ve found that it, I mean, absolutely there’s many different ways, traditional, non traditional, you know, just sit down and think. It’s interesting if, if of course, and I’ve done this with different types of profiles personally, and in the podcast, but it’s interesting that sometimes you see people and say, Oh no, I don’t have any sort of process. And in fact, I had, I think it was David Mullich some while ago, game designer. And he said, well, I’ve always, I had been doing this for 30 years and I approached this, this person.

Rob (17m 39s):
And they said, they showed me their, their sort of processed, you know, to design games and so on. And I realized that’s exactly what I do. And I had never like, thought about it again, not structured. It’s just something that comes naturally to people. So I love your comments in that sense, because it shows that, I mean, there’s some natural reality for many people, there’s all the experience. And the baggage that you have is brought into the design process. And of course there’s sometimes, you know, just the muse comes in and you start creating things and, and then validating and playtesting and taking a look at other users and so on.

Rob (18m 13s):
But, you know, that’s, that’s part of what we want to find out. Just a quick break before we continue, are you enjoying this podcast? If you’re listening through a podcasting app, please subscribe and rate us on the app. This will be of great help to reach more Engagers so we can change the world together through gamification. So Adrian, is there, I mean, you’ve mentioned many, many, many good advice for during this, this episode, but is there any sort of best practice or something that you would say, well, when you’re creating a game, think of this and you know, you’ll probably have better chances of success.

Adrian (18m 49s):
I don’t know that I have like a number one, rule, you know, and, you know, we have as many misses as we do hits. You know, at Six to Start we’ve made some really successful things. I think that our best games have come out of really simple ideas that you can just describe in about one sentence. And I remember really hating that sort of process of an elevator pitch because I always used to think, Hey, I’m complex and my ideas are complex and I can’t sum them up in one sentence.

Rob (19m 19s):
I’m an interesting person.

Adrian (19m 21s):
Yeah. And I’m kind like, you know, and then I realized, yeah, but it turns out that usually the best ideas, even the complex ones, you know, can be summed up in about one sentence. And you, you sort of have to kind of feel confident in that, and you know, that central idea has to be so strong that everyone in the team, however big or small, it may be, can really understand, Oh, this is what can sort of take you through all the way through development and design and testing and marketing you know to the players.

Adrian (20m 0s):
I’ve seen so many game pictures and prototypes where it’s just going like, well, this is a platformer game, but it’s just got monkeys instead of, you know, lions or whatever. And I’m like, well, I mean, technically it’s very, very well done, but I don’t really know why it’s special. And so I think people are getting better at this actually as games are becoming kind of more independent and big a business. But yeah, I think it’s just about like having a central idea the you can really latch on to and trying to visualize that pretty early.

Rob (20m 32s):
Fantastic. That’s actually a great recommendation to be able to have something that is easily explainable as a professor as well. One of the things that they always tell you is, I mean, you don’t really understand something until you’re able to explain it to, you know, a six year old or whatever. It could be an Exaggeration, but it definitely does help to really get the essence of when you want to explain. And if you can explain that very simply very succinctly, you probably have a very good idea of that. What do you actually want and what you’re going to get from that? So that makes a hundred percent sense in my mind.

Rob (21m 3s):
And after listening to these questions, to this sort of vibe in the podcast, is there there’s somebody that comes to your mind, somebody that you would like to listen to answering these questions like you, another guest for, for Professor Game?

Adrian (21m 16s):
You know, it’s a good question. Probably the most fun game that I played in the last year or so was Return of the Obra Dinn, by Lucas Pope. He’s based in Japan. And he, one of the best indie game, literally one person indie game developers I’ve ever seen. It’s just almost depressing. How about this? Guy’s able to accomplish on his own. I was playing this puzzle game, which has this brand new game mechanic I’ve never seen before in a game. And he executes it incredibly well.

Adrian (21m 47s):
I’m playing games, it’s got this amazing graphics, black and white graphics. And it’s got with this music that’s playing throughout this music. It’s great. Who made this music, the same guy who developed the game and did the art and wrote up the thing. So he’s also a composer I was just like, I wanted like to throw my computer out the window. This is just like too much. How’s this guy able to do everything it’s not fair. And he also made a game called Papers, Please, which probably a lot more people, might have heard about as well. So, you know, that guy is one of my best game designers alive.

Adrian (22m 20s):
If you asked me

Rob (22m 21s):
Beautiful, that sounds like a fantastic recommendation. And going on with that, those recommendations, is there a book that you would recommend an audience like this one, you know, people who are interested in making games that do something beyond entertainment and, you know, game design in general, like what would you recommend as a book? And again, it can do with game design or fiction, nonfiction, whatever you want to go for.

Adrian (22m 43s):
You know, very lucky that I just finished like last month, a book called Life a User’s Manual by Georges Perec and this guy is better known for being into Oulipo, which is a kind of style and rules based fiction. And so he wrote a book about using the letter e. Wrote an entire book about the letter e in it, which when I heard about that, I thought, well, it sounds kind of stupid. You know, I mean, as I look at like this, like I don’t, I don’t see what the point is.

Adrian (23m 14s):
Though in life a user’s manual, this is little bit different. He imagines a apartment building and he divides it up into basically kind of a hundred different spaces, 100 different rooms. And he tells a story of all the inhabitants throughout time by jumping to those different rooms and the way he jumps to those different themes is laying them out on the grid, like a chess board and jumping them between them in the manner of a chess Knight. Right. So kind of L-shaped moves and it’s not been a big deal.

Adrian (23m 47s):
He doesn’t really sort of mention this in the book, but that’s just, he’s just trying to like have fun with it. And, when I started reading it at first I was like, well, I don’t really sort of understand what he’s trying to do with the story. Is it just going to be a hundred short stories? And then it sort of manages to transcend the kind of silliness of the premise, you know, of all these kind of rules you set up for themselves of telling these different stories in a sort of way, chess based way. And to sound like just a really beautiful set of stories actually about what it means, what life means, you know, and, and, you know, these, these sort of games we set for ourselves and it’s going to be one of the best books I’ve I’ve had, you know, the last few years how it has it sort of game-like aspects like a said, but it’s also just a really, really amazing piece of fiction.

Rob (24m 39s):
Wow. That sounds really, really like an interesting book, especially to sort of get your mind into new things and, you know, sort of thinking in a very different way. I love that the concept in general. And what would you say in, in this world of creating games, what would you say is your, is your super power, that thing that you do at least better or a lot better than most other people?

Adrian (25m 3s):
You know, the, the, the joke that I’ve said is I get bored of things way faster than other people basically. So, so if I’m like playing a game and it’s just boring, I’ll be like, screw this. I don’t have the patience, you know? And, and that’s obviously a problem because we do need patience, you know, for a lot of things. But I think that in a world where there are so many things competing for your attention and so many distractions, it is really important to be able to design something that can really grab people immediately.

Adrian (25m 35s):
And then, you know, not lose them after five seconds or three minutes, but keep them, but you do need to grab them in the first place. And a lot of people don’t really know how to do that because they think that because they’re interested in the thing, cause they created it, but they don’t realize that other people just don’t care about your new book. They’re not interested in your new books. They’re not interested in your new game. They’re not interested in anything that you do, right. It’s not personal. It’s just there’s a million other things to do. And so, you know, weirdly take my superpower of just being bored of new things is, is, is helpful for creating things that maybe won’t bore other people.

Rob (26m 11s):
Absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. And, and you’re, you’re talking about, you know, things boring new relatively quickly. So I’m guessing that there are very few things that actually catch your attention for a longer period. And I would like to know, what would you say is your favorite game again, of today of, you know, all time, of your childhood, whatever you want to go for, what, what would you say is that favorite game?

Adrian (26m 32s):
I mean, you know, the game that I probably the most formative that I spent the most time playing was probably a Civilization 2. And I played that when I was a teenager, probably like for an entire summer or longer. I wrote fanfiction about it. I got really involved in online communities about it, you know, Civilization, obviously one of the best strategy games out there, you know, just really beautiful balance of rules and also freedom, you know, being able to layer your own stories on top of it, which is unusual for a strategy game.

Adrian (27m 5s):
And so I’ve really enjoyed that so much that I kind of have been reluctant to go back to Civilization VI, you know, or the sort of more recent Civilizations, because I know that if I, as soon as I start playing six hours of my life will just vanish immediately in the blink of an eye. It probably won’t measure up to how much I liked and that’s not the designer’s fault. It’s just, you know, there’s certain things you do when you’re young and the memory of that can, you know, always overpower the reality.

Rob (27m 40s):
Absolutely or even worse, it can be better for you if you want to play it even more. So thanks a lot, Adrian, for spending these minutes with us. I know you’re very short of time and you also have your nine to five rule. So I just want to make sure if, if you, if you have any final words, any final piece of advice for the Engagers, please, please go ahead. Of course, where can we find you and your games and your company sort of the plug zone is definitely available until we say, well, of course, when we’re done, it’s going to be time to say game over.

Adrian (28m 11s):
Sure. So I’m on Twitter as @Adrianhon, if you just search for Adrian Hon on Google, then you’ll find all my stuff, I have a blog. Zombies, Run! is a game. It’s a sort of flagship game of my company, Six to Start. If you just type in Zombies, Run! any app store or play store, then you’ll find it so you can downloads, give it a try. And you know, for my sins, starting to think writing about games and gamification more.

Adrian (28m 43s):
So hopefully in a year or two there’ll be a book about gamification coming out as well.

Rob (28m 45s):
Wow. Super exciting, great news. If you wish we can, we can talk about it once it’s about to launch, I’ll be happy to discuss that as well. If you wish. Anyways, thank you again for sharing your insights, your experience, all these things that you’ve, you’ve shared with us today, however, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s Game Over! Hey Engagers, thank you for listening to Professor Game Podcast. And if you want more interviews with incredible guests like Adrian from Zombies, Run!

Rob (29m 18s):
then go to and get started on our email list. That way we will begin contact, you will be the first to know of any opportunities from Professor Game. You can write to me, we will be right there for you. And before you go onto your next mission, have you subscribed and rated us using your favorite podcast app? It is completely for free. Costs you nothing, and helps us in our mission of reaching more Engagers in changing the world with game-based solutions.

Rob (29m 50s):
So go ahead, subscribe and rate us on the app and listen to the next episode of Professor Game. See you there!

End of transcription

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