Rob Alvarez
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Chess Beat Behavioral Design to Flow State | Episode 459

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Episode Summary

Dan Shapiro, author of Decoding Genius: The Unexpected Lessons of After-School Chess Club, shares how a father-son hobby turned into a study of why chess has held people’s attention for more than 1,500 years. He walks through Miguel Najdorf’s feat of holding 45 blindfolded chess games in his head at once, the built-in rating system that keeps every match in a flow state, and the habit of chess notation that teaches players to review their own decisions. Listeners come away with a clearer picture of why well-tuned difficulty curves matter, why chess maps onto Core Drive 3 (Empowerment of Creativity & Feedback) and Core Drive 7 (Unpredictability & Curiosity), and how curiosity itself works as a design tool.

About the Host

Rob Alvarez is Head of Engagement Strategy, Europe at The Octalysis Group (TOG), a leading gamification and behavioral design consultancy. A globally recognized gamification strategist and TEDx speaker, he founded and hosts Professor Game, the #1 gamification podcast, and has interviewed hundreds of global experts. He designs evidence-based engagement systems that drive motivation, loyalty, and results, and teaches LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® and gamification at top institutions including IE Business School, EFMD, and EBS University across Europe, the Americas, and Asia.

Key Takeaways

  • Miguel Najdorf played 45 simultaneous games of blindfolded chess in an exhibition, tracking every board from another room purely through memory.
  • Chess’s built-in rating system pairs players against evenly matched opponents, a real-world example of designing for flow state as difficulty rises with skill.
  • Chess notation, the practice of recording every move, teaches players a habit of reviewing their own decisions that most people never apply outside the game.
  • Judit Polgar broke Bobby Fischer’s record to become the youngest grandmaster in chess history and remains the strongest female player of all time.
  • Chess has held its relevance for roughly 1,500 years, traveling from the Gupta Empire through Persia and the European Renaissance.
  • Dan Shapiro names curiosity as his personal superpower, mapping directly onto Core Drive 3 (Empowerment of Creativity & Feedback) and Core Drive 7 (Unpredictability & Curiosity).

Topics Covered

  • 0:00 — Opening hook: 45 blindfolded chess games
  • 1:38 — Meet Dan Shapiro, author of Decoding Genius
  • 2:17 — A day in Dan’s life during launch week
  • 3:29 — The tournament failure that hooked him on chess
  • 8:19 — Chess notation and the discipline of reviewing decisions
  • 11:46 — Miguel Najdorf and the memory behind 45 blindfolded games
  • 13:47 — How beginners can start with chess.com puzzles
  • 15:34 — Dynamic difficulty, flow state, and Mario Kart
  • 16:36 — Why chess has survived 1,500 years across cultures
  • 17:45 — Designing for long-term engagement instead of short loops
  • 19:44 — Dan’s dream guest: chess prodigy Judit Polgar
  • 22:18 — Curiosity as a superpower, and Core Drives 3 and 7
  • 24:34 — Chess as Dan’s favorite game, and other brain games
  • 25:38 — Where to find Decoding Genius, plus closing advice
Get the free Core Drives in the Wild guide, behavioral design applied to real products: professorgame.com/WildCD

About Dan Shapiro

Dan Shapiro is the author of Decoding Genius: The Unexpected Lessons of After-School Chess Club, a book that explores what chess can teach us about memory, strategy, resilience, and human potential. His journey began as a father trying to support his son, Harry, and grew into a deeper exploration of why chess has been connected to genius for more than 1,500 years. Dan makes the game accessible to parents, new players, and anyone curious about how focused effort, preparation, and strategic thinking can help people of all ages grow.

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Looking forward to reading or hearing from you, Rob Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Opening Hook: 45 Blindfolded Chess Games

Dan Shapiro (0:00): Played forty-five games of chess simultaneously. So he played forty-five different boards, allowed each opponent to bring up to four friends to consult with each other and play him. And he played the entire game blindfolded. So he wasn’t really blindfolded. He was in another room. He held all forty-five games in his mind. Rob Alvarez (0:25): So, hey engagers, welcome to Professor Game, the number one gamification podcast where, you know, we discuss games, gamification, game thinking, behavioral design, behavioral psychology, and many more to boost engagement, multiply retention, build stronger products, and many other things that we can achieve through these strategies. And I’m Rob, I’m the founder, I’m also a coach at Professor Game. I’m also the head of engagement strategy in Europe for the Octalysis Group, the leading gamification behavioral design consultancy. And I’m a professor of gamification and game-based solutions at top global institutions like IE University, IE Business School, EFMD, EBS University, and others around the world. And before we dive into today’s conversation, super interesting, very specific and very special with Dan, remember that if you’re struggling in any way with what I mentioned before, you know, things like retention, adoption, churn, engagement with your product, with your service or business, there is a way around that. And you can do something very, very quick, which is click on the link below. And go for a guide, Core Drives in the Wild. All you need to do is click there, you’ll get a few emails, and you’ll get a good gist of what it looks like and feels like to work with the core drives. And without further ado, Dan, we first, before we get started, we need to know: are you prepared to engage? Dan Shapiro (1:37): I am.

Meet Dan Shapiro, Author of Decoding Genius

Rob Alvarez (1:38): Dan, we have Dan with us today, Dan Shapiro. He is the author of a book called Decoding Genius: The Unexpected Lessons of After-School Chess Club. It’s a book that explores what chess can teach us about memory, strategy, resilience, and human potential. And his journey began as a father trying to support his son, Harry, and grew into a deeper exploration of why chess has been connected to genius for over fifteen hundred years. And Dan makes the game accessible to parents, new players, and anyone curious about how focused effort, preparation, and strategic thinking can help people of all ages grow. So, Dan, is there anything that we’re missing from that intro that we should know before we dive into the question? Dan Shapiro (2:12): I think you covered it well.

A Day in Dan’s Life During Launch Week

Rob Alvarez (2:17): Amazing, amazing. So Dan, I’m pretty sure there’s many things going on in your life right now. So what would a regular day or maybe week, depending on what looks better or more interesting to you, look like if we were to follow you around to shadow you? Dan Shapiro (2:29): Yeah, well this week is particularly interesting. I’m actually on vacation from my day job in the business world, but getting ready to launch this book. We happen to be recording about a week before launch. So it’s a very exciting time, and I’m spending a hundred percent of my day talking to folks about chess, the history of chess, and it’s kind of the original gamification in a way. So very excited for this conversation. Rob Alvarez (2:55): Makes sense. Thanks for taking the time, you know, taking your vacation to invest in something like a book, which is always bringing something interesting to the world. And then with the things that you’ve seen in chess, you know, we always make this question about gamification, behavioral design, but with what you’ve seen in chess and what you’ve done in chess, is there any story of, you know, I went all in, or I tried this thing and it really didn’t go well, it went south in many ways, where we can of course learn from that failure and see how we can apply those lessons to extrapolate to other worlds?

The Tournament Failure That Hooked Him On Chess

Dan Shapiro (3:29): Yeah. For sure. So the big failure in my journey here was my first chess tournament. So as you hinted at in the introduction, I started going after chess with my son. He was seven at the time. And I wanted to support him. I wanted to learn alongside him and be involved as a parent. And so I started taking chess lessons once a week. Started playing and practicing and I got the idea, well, if my son’s doing chess tournaments, I should do at least a couple to know what it’s like. And in my first chess tournament, I got absolutely destroyed. And that doesn’t even tell the full story, because the way chess works, you get a rating, and when you’re first starting like I did, you have a very low rating. And so my opponents were all these impossibly small and cute seven, eight, and nine-year-old kids, and they were beating me terribly. And so it was certainly humbling, but it did teach me a couple of really important things that got me even more interested in the game. One is it has always been a game that has supported prodigies, where kids can be even better than adults. Now certainly, these kids who were beating up on me in the tournament were not prodigies yet. But it is something where kids and even adults can learn a lot very, very quickly. And so there’s something about chess and the way the game is structured that people can progress very quickly and learn a lot, even at a young age. And there’s an allure to that. I also found at the end of the three-day tournament, at the end of every day, I was incredibly tired. And so I started keying in on this idea of chess fitness. It almost felt like if you go out for a run and you’re not used to running and you’re out of shape and it’s hard to keep up. I felt like that in chess with my brain. And so that was another key that chess was really bringing some kind of value to your brain, like almost a brain gym, I would call it. Rob Alvarez (5:36): Interesting. Interesting. I had never thought of it that way. Of course, not related to chess, but I do remember, you know, and this is an experience I’ve shared with friends and the younger ones especially, that when you’re in school, it feels like it’s overwhelming. Everything, it’s like all this homework and all this stuff. And then you go to university and it’s like, wow, that was nothing, school was easy. I want to go back to school, everything was so simple, you know. And some people even take on part-time jobs and it’s very stressful. I’m not saying it’s not. But you realize, well, at least that was my experience, and I know many of my friends had the same thing, of when you actually work a full-time job, you could say well, sometimes you’re studying all week, like seven days, and a full-time job is not seven days a week, it’s five days a week, it’s relatively limited. But especially at the start, I was exhausted. Like I really felt the weight of it all sort of coming in. And it’s like, wow, you know, before I felt I was doing so many things. Like at the university, I was studying, I was doing all these clubs, all these things. I was very busy. I did, you know, student government. I did a bunch of things. So I was really, really into it. A lot of energy was being drained anyway. But then full-time job, completely different game. And I think, in a way, you’re sort of trained after a few years. Of course, now you can manage the ways you understand better how to handle yourself and many others. But I’m guessing that chess, in that sense, is a very specific kind of brain power that you’re using. So probably it could be something along those lines, is my best guess, but for sure it’s definitely a good brain gym. Dan Shapiro (7:03): Definitely. Yeah. It took some getting used to and I saw it in my son as well. He was tired and had a rough outing his first couple of tournaments, but like anything else, with practice and deliberate work he was able to improve. So definitely very interesting. Rob Alvarez (7:18): Absolutely. And that’s how the best of everything get to be the best of anything. At the Octalysis Group, you know, our founders have been doing this for longer than everybody else in the group, and their experience shows and shines for sure, especially specifically in the methodology and many others. You know, I’ve been in this world of gamification for, you know, a pretty long time, and I’m guessing that hopefully it shows as well, you know, how I can see things beyond what some people, you know, maybe even with a few years of experience can see. You know, the whole “practice makes not perfect, but better” is definitely a big thing there. So that’s a big lesson as well that I would take from that. And with instead of things going down, downside, is there an experience where, you know, it could be the book, it could be something in the book, maybe one of the small stories in the book, I don’t know, where chess actually — you know, you were trying to do something and chess, or anything you’ve observed in that sense, made it better? It’s a story of success regarding this point.

Chess Notation and the Discipline of Reviewing Decisions

Dan Shapiro (8:19): Yeah, well it’s been a huge help to me and a huge help to my son. Chess is very interesting because it not only teaches you the game itself, but it teaches you a real method of skills acquisition. And it enables you to go and learn other things when you do some serious chess study. I think one of the great benefits of chess is chess notation. And so some of your listeners may be aware there’s this series of numbers and letters that are a code. And each player who’s playing in a chess tournament, they record all of their moves and all of their opponents’ moves as the game goes on. And what this allows you to do is go back after the game and to review each step of the game — what went well, what went poorly, what you can learn from, what you can do differently. And when you think about the gamification side of this, take someone like my son. If I took my seven-year-old aside and said, “Hey, as you’re making important decisions, I want you to write down all of your decisions and then review them afterwards to critique your thought process and try and improve,” he’s gonna look at me like I’m crazy. But chess, by the way it’s constructed, really teaches this kind of deliberate thinking, which is great for a parent to give a child. But again, it’s delivered in the form of a game. It’s practiced in the form of a game. You have this very engaging competition and winning and losing going on. And yet they’re picking up this skill of tracking their decisions and refining their decisions, building up habits of reviewing those decisions, of bouncing ideas off of others and trying to improve what they do in the future. And it’s really incredible to see. Rob Alvarez (10:11): Interesting. I’m not a big chess player at all. I was sharing before that I stopped playing chess way too early in that sense, but it’s always been very cryptic to me when people start sharing that. And in fact, there was this joke that my dad used to share with me, where we used to hear baseball games through the radio, because our team back in Venezuela was a smaller team, so it was not in the big cities. It was a big city, but compared to the other ones, a smaller city. So it was not televised, so you couldn’t see it on TV. So you had the radio, that was it. For some people it’s like, how can you just listen to a sport, and baseball of all sports as well, which is, you know, it’s slow moving and all that. But he always made this joke — he was a lot bigger on chess, he was the one who started me on chess and then, you know, it was on me to have quit a bit — he said, well, you know, you can always hear a chess game on the radio, right? Like, you can sit down and of course you could be doing the moves and doing that, but if you think about it, if you’re not into baseball or if you’re not into chess and you think baseball and radio is boring, you know, imagine hearing a radio game of chess. But if you’re completely immersed in that world and you’re probably visualizing the whole board and every move, you’re seeing the move and you’re thinking in your head what could be ahead, and you could be anticipating what the opponents could do, it could be really, really interesting in that sense. Once you — again, once you get into that, even listening to it on the radio, or nowadays with, you know, Alexa or any of these apps —

Miguel Najdorf and the Memory Behind 45 Blindfolded Games

Dan Shapiro (11:46): I’ll give you a quick story about how good the top chess players are with visualizing the game in the way you’re describing. Yeah, so there’s a guy named Miguel Najdorf, one of the most famous chess players of all time. Interesting story: he was from Poland and he was playing at the Chess Olympiad in Argentina at the time that the Nazis invaded Poland. And so he ended up staying in Argentina and living the rest of his life being this famous chess player there. That’s just one interesting part of his life. But he had an incredible chess memory, even among other grandmasters who were great. And he put on an exhibition where he played forty-five games of chess simultaneously. So he played forty-five different boards. He allowed each opponent to bring up to four friends to consult with each other and play him. And he played the entire game blindfolded. So he wasn’t really blindfolded — he was in another room. He held all forty-five games in his mind and played them all like that. And that’s something I cover in the book. And I think it just shows the power of chess as teaching these other skills — in this case memory, but there are many others. Rob Alvarez (13:04): That is absolutely incredible. And serendipitously enough, my mom is actually Polish. My grandparents left after World War — because of the communists actually, you know, they lived through the war in Romania and then they left after the war. Dan Shapiro (13:20): Amazing. A lot of people had that kind of story. Rob Alvarez (13:24): Yeah, there’s so much into that. And Dan, if somebody were to get into chess — and of course I know a significant, if not a big, part of the book is about that — but if somebody were to get into chess for some objective, so a double question here: what could those objectives be, and how would you recommend them getting started, like entry level, what would that look like?

How Beginners Can Start With Chess.com Puzzles

Dan Shapiro (13:47): Yeah. I’ll take the second question first. So when you’re starting out, I would keep it really simple. There are really great online resources now. A really classic way to learn and practice chess is what’s called chess puzzles, where instead of playing a whole game, you’ll see a board set up and you just have to figure out what the next move is. And so you can subscribe to something like chess.com and start doing some basic chess puzzles. And there are even online tutorials on chess.com where you can start to learn the moves. And just doing five minutes a day of puzzles is a great way to start to figure out how the pieces move, understand the strategy, and then as you get ready, chess.com can pair you up with online people who are similarly lowly rated beginners who are just like you and working through the game. On the gamification side, I would again say that’s something that chess had really gotten right. There’s a reason it’s been around for fifteen hundred years. And this idea of having a rating for each player, where you are playing similarly skilled people — as you improve, you go up in rating and then you play other people. And so you’re always being challenged, you’re always learning, you’re always a little bit out of your depth, and if you ever have a burst of improvement, you’re right back in the next highest level against other people. And so I think on the gamification side, that’s an interesting dynamic that chess has really gotten right, of setting that difficulty in a dynamic way so that you’re never losing every game and feeling miserable, nor are you just winning without improving. And I think that’s been a good thing.

Dynamic Difficulty, Flow State, and Mario Kart

Rob Alvarez (15:34): If I can interrupt you just for a second, because that’s on one end — you know, sort of the more pop-culture answer to this is that’s what Mario Kart became famous for. That you’re never way too behind. So even if you’re last, the way the game behaves, it automatically pairs the other people, so you really have a shot. And if you’re first, it starts getting a lot more challenging, so that you’re always being pressed by the one who’s right behind you. So, you know, that’s the sort of pop culture answer. But that has to do with flow. And Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi has a theory where you are in flow when the challenge is closer matching your level of skill in whatever task that is. If it’s too much, it’s overwhelming, you quit. If it’s too little, you get bored. In chess, by having the system that you’re describing, you’re essentially designing for flow. And this is something — I don’t know how long the rating has been around, but you know, it’s probably not fifteen hundred years, but it is a lot older than many of the strategies that we’ve been designing in terms of behavioral —

Why Chess Has Survived 1,500 Years Across Cultures

Dan Shapiro (16:36): Yeah, it’s very interesting. I mean, the game has really endured, and I think for your listeners who are focused on gamification, probably the use of chess — and I can give you lots of others — but one use is just, when you look at a game that has endured, and not only that, chess began in the Gupta Empire and what is today northern India. It then went to China and in Persia, it made its way to the Renaissance, and it’s just been throughout the world over this very long period of time, different geographies, different time periods, different cultures, different types of technology around it, and yet it has still maintained its relevance. And so I think the things that make chess attractive and have made it sustain are interesting things for people who are creating games and game-like environments, because there’s a certain handful of core elements of chess that seem to agree with humans of all kinds, in all times, and have really been relevant and kept everyone’s attention.

Designing for Long-Term Engagement Instead of Short Loops

Rob Alvarez (17:45): Absolutely. And what — many of the talks I’ve given in the past, especially, you know, this was especially before COVID, when I used to travel a lot for speaking engagements, now I do it a lot less, have a family, you know, travel has changed, but I used to travel a lot more. And one of the things I always talked about was how you have things that are for the really long term, right? And you design for long-term thinking. You know, you have a loyalty program at an airline, you’re not thinking about the next trip that person takes, you’re thinking about how to turn that customer into someone purchasing from you for the next thirty, fifty years even. But there’s other things where it’s a closer loop, right? It could be there, and it could still be well designed, it could be, you know, a campaign or something where you engage people for a month, that’s also very valuable. But when I was talking about the short versus long term, I was always saying, like, tic-tac-toe is a very successful game, right? But it’s not a successful game in terms of playing it, you know, for all your life, right? You don’t play tic-tac-toe — you play tic-tac-toe, you understand how it works, and eventually you get bored. Just because there’s not enough complexity to keep on building on that. Eventually it just gets stuck, and, you know, nobody wins if two players kind of know the whole deal — it’s over, right? The game is over. It’s not interesting. Whereas with chess, it’s the complete opposite. And the thing with chess in that sense is, when you’re trying to design something for longevity, it could be great to have that sort of target of, yeah, whatever I designed, I want it to be played for the next fifteen hundred years — but it doesn’t have to. How many games have really survived that long and still, you know, become a lifelong journey of people to get to mastery and continue mastering beyond and further? There’s not too many games in that sense. There’s a lot to learn from something very top-tier like chess, but you don’t have to go for something that lives for that long and is adopted by all of mankind. You just have to make the thing that solves the problem that you’re trying to solve. But again, with all due respect, absolutely for chess, I love how it’s able to do all these things. So in that sense, after these questions, is there somebody that you think you would be personally interested in hearing on Professor Game? Like, I don’t know, maybe somebody you’ve heard of, or that is either related to chess or maybe even some other game, that you say, well, I would take inspiration from that to further my knowledge of chess, or how to use chess for other things as well, that you would be personally interested in?

Dan’s Dream Guest: Chess Prodigy Judit Polgar

Dan Shapiro (19:44): Yeah, well that’s an easy one. So I’ve become really fascinated by the chess player Judit Polgar. She is a contemporary of mine in terms of age. She, in her time playing professionally, was one of the best chess players in the world — she is by far the greatest female chess player of all time. And she was also a child prodigy, and she, in her day, overtook Bobby Fischer as the youngest-ever grandmaster. And so she’s just absolutely brilliant, had an amazing career. There’s actually a documentary out right now called Queen of Chess about her, and she’s just very, very interesting. And, you know, where my book for people tries to pick up a basic introduction for people who don’t play chess and want to understand what the allure of it is, a great chess mind like that would be really, really interesting to understand — deeper strategy and how they think about things. Rob Alvarez (21:08): I, for sure, it would be Judit Polgar. Judit Polgar. Very, very interesting for sure. And, keeping up with recommendations, is there a book that you would recommend listeners, of course, to sit right next to yours once it comes out? Dan Shapiro (21:19): Yeah. Yeah, I would say, so for me, as I was learning the game, one of the best chess creators right now is a fellow named Levy Rozman. He has a YouTube channel called GothamChess and he has a book called How to Win at Chess. And it’s a very accessible, fun, modern, interesting approach to learning the game, and his content that’s out there on video is really interesting. Rob Alvarez (21:47): He’s good. I found that book really useful and would recommend it. Excited. Great stuff for sure. In the world of chess — and again, I always make this caveat for people, remember that a superpower can be shared by many, it doesn’t mean you’re the only one to have that superpower, but something that distinguishes you in this world, and perhaps even in the world of chess, and that I know is a challenge because you’re not Judit Polgar, but — what would you say is that thing that makes you special? You know, perhaps it’s one of the reasons why you decided to write a book.

Curiosity as a Superpower, and Core Drives 3 and 7

Dan Shapiro (22:18): Yeah, so I am definitely not distinguished in the world of chess, other than having researched it as a parent and written the book, but as a player, certainly not. I would say my superpower is probably curiosity. I just think curiosity is a great tool for almost any situation. You think about — you meet someone and you really get along well and you want to get to know them better, well, curiosity is gonna draw you to that person and make for great conversations. You have a challenging relationship with someone at work or at school — well, again, curiosity, rather than just battling them, saying, “Well, I wonder why they’re like that, I wonder why they’re doing that, what are they feeling.” You look at an interesting challenge at work, maybe a problem you’re trying to solve, and rather than just being frustrated or working harder, sometimes it makes sense to be curious, step back, try and work smarter, understand the problem, try and come up with a novel solution. And that really is what led me to write this book and go on this great journey where my younger son took up chess. I didn’t know anything about it. And I said, well, maybe there’s some treasure there, and why don’t I dive in and try and learn as much as I can about it? And I went on this great journey. So to me, curiosity would really be the superpower. Rob Alvarez (23:36): Cool, cool. Curiosity is always crucial. In fact, it’s a Core Drive — Core Drive 3, Empowerment of Creativity & Feedback, which is basically led by curiosity and how you want to do things. And Core Drive 7, Unpredictability & Curiosity — you don’t know what’s behind it. So both things, when they’re paired up, they bring you something like that. It gives you that space to make your own choices, right? Because you’re curious and you want to do your own research, you want to see how it works because you’re curious about it. But then it’s unpredictable, you don’t really know what’s behind the curtain — that’s Core Drive 7 for sure.

Chess as Dan’s Favorite Game, and Other Brain Games

Rob Alvarez (24:15): Very, very interesting. After all this conversation, I have a very good guess at what your answer is, but I’m gonna ask you also for the second one, if that’s the case. So what is your favorite game? And if it’s not — if it is chess, what would be your next favorite game as well? Dan Shapiro (24:34): I think, yeah, I have to say chess, because I’ve been so enthralled with it in the writing of this book. It also has brought me closer to my son. We’ve had a lot of great time together, not just playing chess, but also traveling to the chess tournaments, eating three meals a day together at the tournaments, and we’ve had a lot of really high-quality father-and-son time. So for me, chess has become a lot more than just the game that’s on the board. Outside of that, I love strategy games, word games, math games. I’m a big fan of crossword puzzles, because I just love the quiet engagement of your brain. And to me, chess is the ultimate expression of that because there’s competition, there’s two players, there’s deep strategy. But I love any of those things where I’m just figuring out — even if it’s a little simple crossword puzzle, I love just activating my brain and going through and trying to solve it, and that’s what I find fun and rewarding.

Where to Find Decoding Genius, Plus Closing Advice

Rob Alvarez (25:38): Very, very interesting. Love that. And Dan, of course, before letting you go, before moving on to whatever the next task the engagers have on their to-do list is, we would like definitely to know where we can find out about your book. It’s not launched by the time we’re recording, but it’ll probably be launched by the time you’re hearing this. So where can we find the book, if somebody wants to purchase it? Where can we find out more about your work and whatever it is that you’re doing in the world? Dan Shapiro (26:03): The book is available on Amazon, and the best place to learn more is at my website, which is DecodingGeniusBook.com. You’ll be able to find links there to the Amazon page, to articles relating to the book, my social media links, and everything’s right there. Rob Alvarez (26:20): Amazing. That sounds perfect. And if you have any final piece of advice, anything else you want to tell the engagers, right now is the perfect timing. Dan Shapiro (26:28): I would just say stay curious. You’ll discover amazing things, and don’t be afraid to take a few steps in the direction of some little thing you notice, because a lot of times there’s great stuff over there. Rob Alvarez (26:40): Fantastic, fantastic, love that. Dan, thank you very much for your time, for your knowledge, your experience. Engagers, remember, if you’re curious about how the core drives work in the wild, in real projects, we have our free guide, Core Drives in the Wild. You can find it in the link in the description. All you have to give us is your email, and you’ll get it straight to your inbox. And at least for now, and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. End of transcription

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