Rob Alvarez
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What Disney Queues Teach Product Teams | Episode 470

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Episode Summary

Rob breaks down waiting line design for products and programs, showing why most of the waits customers feel were never designed at all. He contrasts a near-queueless visit to Hong Kong Disneyland with three-hour lines in Orlando, a paid skip lane that barely beat the regular one, and the Seven Dwarfs queue against a packed airport line, drawing on his operations teaching, David Maister’s 1985 work on the psychology of waiting, and Buell and Norton’s labor illusion study. Listeners learn to cut the waits they can, design the ones they keep, and tell whether a premium tier sells real value or an escape from a problem the business owns.

About the Host

Rob Alvarez is Head of Engagement Strategy, Europe at The Octalysis Group (TOG), a leading gamification and behavioral design consultancy. A globally recognized gamification strategist and TEDx speaker, he founded and hosts Professor Game, the #1 gamification podcast, and has interviewed hundreds of global experts. He designs evidence-based engagement systems that drive motivation, loyalty, and results, and teaches LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® and gamification at top institutions including IE Business School, EFMD, and EBS University across Europe, the Americas, and Asia.

Key Takeaways

  • Removing every waiting line would mean building capacity for the busiest hour of the busiest day, which almost no operation can afford; waits are a necessary evil, and the design question is what you do with the ones you keep.
  • The real cost of a long theme park line is everything visitors don’t get to do, which triggers Core Drive 6 (Scarcity & Impatience) and Core Drive 8 (Loss & Avoidance) as people ration which rides are worth the queue.
  • On Hong Kong Disneyland’s Jungle Cruise, the paid fast lane saved roughly 10 to 15 minutes over the regular line; a paid skip is only worth what the regular line costs you, and here that wasn’t much.
  • When customers buy a premium tier mainly to escape the standard experience, the business is selling relief from a problem it owns rather than real added value.
  • In Buell and Norton’s labor illusion study, about six in ten people chose a slower travel search that showed its work over an instant one, but blind waits dropped that to four in ten at 30 seconds and one in four at 60.
  • Four questions for any wait: can you cut it, is it explained, is it certain, and is it fair? For premium tiers, add a fifth: would anyone pay to skip this wait if the regular line were fine?

Topics Covered

Mentioned in This Episode

Free Resources and Get in Touch

Looking forward to reading or hearing from you, Rob Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Paying to skip the line at Hong Kong Disneyland

Rob Alvarez (00:00): At Hong Kong Disneyland, I watched people pay to skip the line. And frankly, I was glad that I did not. If you sell any kind of premium tier, stay with me, because the reason matters for you. So if you’re responsible for whether people actually use what you built, you have you’ll probably have waits as well. The weeks between the signed contract and the first real value, the approval step, the verification email, the support queue, most of these waits were never designed. They just they just happen. And people feel every single minute. So hi, I’m Rob. I’m the head of engagement strategy Europe at the Octalysis Group. The leading gamification and behavioral design consultancy. And I host Professor Game, also the number one, the leading gamification and behavioral design podcast. And I also teach operations and gamification and game-inspired solutions as well on many places, including IE Business School, the EFMD, EBS University, and others around the world. when I teach operations side of waiting lines to students, I do this every single year, multiple times a year. So I get to look At this problem from both ends. Of course, the math of the line, how those things happen, but also the behavioral side, the people standing in the line itself. By the end of this episode, you’ll have a few questions that you can run on every wait every line in your product and your program. Which ones you want to cut, how to design, of course, the ones that you can’t, and how to tell whether a premium tier is selling real value or just selling a way out of the problem you all actually own. So let’s start with what a wait actually costs, the business of selling the skip, and of course honest limits, and how to design the waits that you decide

Why you can’t eliminate every waiting line

Rob Alvarez (01:46): to keep. So as I said before, every single year I ask my operations students when we’re talking about waiting lines, should we get rid of waiting lines entirely? And guess what? What would you answer with a simple, plain, and you know ignoring all complexity problem like this one? You ask, should we get rid of waiting lines? The answer is of course, why would you want to keep waiting lines? But the operational answer is that you cannot afford to do something like that. 99.9% of the time. You’d have to build for the busiest hour of your busiest day. And that is just not realistic. Waiting lines are what we call a necessary evil. And I say evil, you know, here between quotation marks, because not always do they have to be evil. The real question is what you do with those waiting lines, with those queues that you Cannot afford to take away with those that you keep.

Hong Kong Disneyland at 5 pm with no queues

Rob Alvarez (02:42): So what does a wait really cost you? Picture me at Hong Kong Disneyland, 5 p.m. That’s the kind of time you expect everybody who’s going to the park that day is gonna be there at that time, 5 p.m. So if I had to guess, I don’t know, I don’t have any data to back this up. I would guess that’s one of the times when there’s the most people, so you would expect the highest. waiting times the highest queues. And you probably know that in many Disneys they tell you how long approximately you will have to wait from the time you start walking into the ride until you actually get into the ride. Guess what the number was? Five minutes. That essentially means that you will be walking through the places where people would normally do a queue if there was one, and you’ll just walk straight into the ride. We also did Winnie the Pooh four times in two days. This is in the center of the park, the area where young kids like ours are very excited because these are slow rides where they can, have some of the excitement, not too much, and they can be happy about it. Four times in two days. And guess why we would even agree to something like that? There was absolutely no wait. Our kid, of course, was loving it.

Orlando 2019 and the real cost of a line

Rob Alvarez (03:50): Absolutely. So contrast that with the trip my wife and I made as well, many years before in 2019, before we had kids. Completely different park. We also went in summer, to be fair. we of course got very impatient, even just two adults. We got very impatient a few times because the queues were so long. We realized how long the queues were and how we had to actually strategize to decide which rides we would take. So essentially which lines were worth it, and accept that there were some things that we would potentially not be able to see. There was not enough time for adding all of those waiting times. of all of the different rides in every one of those parks, which also were a lot larger in Orlando, as you can guess. The real cost of a long line is not the minutes themselves. It’s everything that you don’t get to do in this case. If you see it from a perspective of Octalysis Core Drives, here you have a very strong use of Core Drive six, Scarcity and Impatience because you’re there and there’s so much you could in theory do, but so I mean, I don’t want to say so little, but there’s only so many things you actually get to do. So you now actually want to get to do every one of those things just because you can’t, amongst others. And of course, Core Drive eight, Loss and Avoidance, definitely comes in because. You have fear of missing out. What if the things that you didn’t get to do or you decided not to do are actually the ones that you wanted most, right? So you’re motivated to trying to optimize and run through all these things to get to do all of those lines. And of course, in a case like this one, what do you want to do is cut every single wait as much as you can for this kind of strategy, for this kind of situation. In Hong Kong, it was beautiful in the sense that we made pretty much no queues. We We saw, like as an anecdote, I can almost say that one had 40 minute wait, and that was like, that’s ridiculous. In this context, of course. If you put it back in in what we saw in Orlando, we s got to see queues of three hours. I didn’t get to make any of those because I was I hate waiting lines a bit too much. They have to be too valuable for me. And I had done most of those rides in the past when I was a kid, so it wasn’t as valuable for me to do a three hour queue. In this case, again, all you want to do is cut every single wait. As much as you can. make a quick pause here because if you want to start spotting Core Drives in the experiences all around you and the stuff that you’re designing, theme parks included, if you want to do that as well, that’s what Core Drives in the Wild is for. So all you have to do is go to professorgame.com/WildCD. You can find that link in the description and just click and you’ll get a bunch of emails well a bunch. One email per core drive from me explaining the core drive how it’s been observed in one of the past episodes, you’ll get a link to the episode as well. And of course, my take as an Octalysis consultant.

The Jungle Cruise paid skip lane

Rob Alvarez (06:38): So now let’s picture the Jungle Cruise in Hong Kong. In this case in Hong Kong, when I did it when I was a kid, I don’t remember it being themed by by Tarzan, or Tarzan, I don’t know how to pronounce it in English. I just realized. but but that was it basically the Jungle Cruise where you get in a boat and you go around and see the animals through a river and all that. That was one of the few ones where we had some quote unquote real wait. So it was 10, 15 minutes, let’s say it was 20. We could see from where we were what the people who paid for going faster in line, what what it looked like for them. And essentially what they were doing is that they were were filling a boat with people who did not pay extra, so to speak, for for the fast pass or whatever it’s called, right? The people who pay to to not make queues. So it was one of of them and one of our line where we didn’t pay anything extra, just the tickets to go in. That line was not meaningfully, at least from what I could observe, but maybe it was my bias from from just being on the other line. I didn’t I didn’t feel like it was meaningfully different. So I saw not not just the price, but the the fact that you pay something for it. I I saw it and I was like, I’m actually glad I didn’t pay for that. Because then I would be almost upset that the people who didn’t pay were were going almost as fast as we were. And there was not the same amount of people, but it was Pretty comparable. Like it was when you wait for twenty, thirty minutes and the other line waits, let’s say, you know, ten to fifteen minutes, the difference doesn’t feel as meaningful and especially when it’s the biggest queue you’re making in the park. So when you’re having a paid skip of the of the line, it’s worth well, i it you’re comparing it to what the regular line costs you in terms of time. It’s th this one versus this one. If it’s saving me 10, 15 minutes, is it really worth it in this kind of context? In my opinion, not really.

Premium tiers that sell relief from your own problem

Rob Alvarez (08:23): So premium buys you something extra, right? A version to watch, the standard experience pretty much stays painful because the escape is what it is selling. And so you’re you’re you’re putting a standard experience so that people see how good the the other experience is so that they want to have the VIP experience. So if people are buying your premium mainly to just escape the standard version, you’re you’re kind of selling a relief from the problem that you are, I don’t want to say creating, but that you own. It’s it’s a problem that you have. in your experience. Of course,

When anticipation makes the wait worth it

Rob Alvarez (08:55): all this I’m saying as as usual also has limits. There’s there was this study in 1987 by Loewenstein where he was asking, this is a completely different setting, right? he was asking students what they would pay for a kiss from their favorite movie star. And from the experiment, what he concluded, what he realized was that they would pay more. They would pay more for one Kiss in three days rather than for getting that same kiss right now. Looking forward to the experience is, probably part of the pleasure in that particular situation. Some waits also come with what with that built in. You’re waiting for something you want, you can picture it, and it’s like, wow, yeah, this is you know part of the that and the anticipation when when people are planning for trips as well. Yeah, sometimes people really enjoy. you know, spending months in the preparation and imagining and picturing it and saying, well, this is this is something I’m looking forward to. However, this is not an excuse for, you know, because you’re nobody’s really savoring an approval queue, right? So don’t don’t use these kinds of experiences looking forward to a trip as an exception to excuse a wait that you have

Seven Dwarfs queue vs the Barcelona airport

Rob Alvarez (10:06): generated. Also in my classes of operations, talking about waiting lines, I show them a video of it’s it’s a public video that I found on the internet of what the Seven Dwarfs waiting experience looks like. And so they see the people sort of playing around, they look at the jewels, and they don’t know it’s a waiting line. It’s just a showing a picture and and you could almost if you didn’t have the context of what it is, you could almost conclude that the experience itself is that thing that you’re seeing in the video when it’s actually the waiting line. So they They don’t act know that that’s what it is. I actually asked them, what do you think these people were doing? And then when they realize this waiting in line sounds almost ridiculous, right? And then I show them a a video in this case I found it’s in particular of the Barcelona airport, but that it could be pretty much any airport in the world where you see huge queues of people, just queueing and waiting impatiently and you know, pretty much sick to to to to be there. They they they realize how how insane the difference is between one and another. It could even be the same amount of time, you know, in Seven Dwarfs, th that that’s one of the queues that I’ve seen go all the way up to two and a half, three hours, right? So people in the airport sometimes have to wait the same amount of time, you know, two hours, one hour. So it could be almost be the same minutes, but the feel is completely radically different. There’s a study about this by David, I don’t know how to pronounce Meister or Maister in nineteen eighty five that talks about this as well. There’s also another study by

Show the work: the labor illusion

Rob Alvarez (11:28): Buell and Norton that shows about the labor illusion, right? So you have a travel site with identical results. So you what you actually the results you get are the same. so when you have a slower, a slower result come up, when it shows its work, how it’s working, what it’s actually doing, six in ten people picked it over the one that gives you instant results. When it made people wait blindly. That went down to four in 10 at 30 seconds and one in four at sixty. So you can see the difference between what people value when they see that there’s a wait. The wait is because there’s some work being done. If there is real work that is happening while you’re waiting, show the work. That doesn’t mean add a fake a fake wait when you’re doing some work. Maybe, maybe you want to make a small one, but Don’t really make people wait if there’s nothing to wait for. I’m not suggesting that. But if there is real work happening in the background while they need to wait because the wait is there, please show the work. Another example,

Explained waits: the doctor in the ER

Rob Alvarez (12:29): sort of in the same vein, but but completely different, is I I was waiting for a doctor appointment a couple of years ago. And we were waiting, waiting. We never even saw the doctor coming in. I realized that was the first appointment of of the day. You know, time comes in, he’s not in, 10 minutes, 20 minutes go by. We were all starting to get antsy. different patients were talking to them to each other saying, what’s going on? This doctor, is he responsible? What’s going on? And then a bit late, if you ask me, that should have happened at the minute when when they knew and they realized there were people waiting, they came in and told us, look, the doctor is right now in the ER performing a very urgent surgery. It’s like, okay. So if if you understand that something is happening, there’s a reason that doesn’t make this wait be so unfair, feel so bad, you reduce, you minimize anxiety. And then I was actually more willing to wait longer because I know if I was in the urgent situation, I would want my doctor to come in immediately rather than go through all of his appointments and then come support me. Right. So you kind of put yourself a little bit in their shoes. There’s Core Drive 5 Social Influence and Relatedness. There’s other people where you can comment and it’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s actually it’s actually reasonable. We would all prefer that to happen. Even if it’s not us, you know, you never know when it’s gonna be sort of your turn. So when you do have to make wait, you can do things like explaining the wait. This is part of the study I was talking about before, and this is part of what I explained my operations classes. Occupied waits like the Seven Dwarfs, sorting gems, spinning buckets, they do all these things throughout the queue. It feels less like wait. And of course, explained waits as well are less anxiety driving. In the case of Seven Dwarfs, you could almost argue that the ride doesn’t start when you get on the ride itself. It starts when you start doing the line.

Questions to run on every wait you own

Rob Alvarez (14:16): So, where do the lines actually live? They are between things like the yes and the first value, verification and approval steps, support escalations. There’s many kinds of waits that you can see in most business situations. So when you see that there’s a wait for your consumer, for your customer, you can ask a few questions. Things like: can we cut the wait, make it shorter, make it disappear? If you cannot cut it, is it explained? Is it clear? Is it certain? Do you know how much time they’re gonna have to wait? Is it fair how you wait? Or does it seem like some people are getting special treatment that is not explained as well? If you are selling a way around the wait, would anyone really pay to skip it? If the regular line were pretty much okay. So when you ask that question, you realize you’re not just making people wait so that they pay a premium. It’s rather, well, they’re they’re paying because they want. go really really faster or because it makes sense because of some value

Delete first, then design what’s left

Rob Alvarez (15:15): add and you might you might remember when i’m talking about waiting lines a few a few weeks ago i was talking about the the the best redesign is sometimes just deleting stuff waiting lines might be one of the first places to look at where you can start cutting so again cut every wait that you can there are others where you can’t cut because they’re part of the product so you design around those waits and if you want To keep spotting these Core Drives acting out in the wild in real situations, all you have to do, as I said before, is go click on the link in the description, which is professorgame.com/WildCD. And as you know, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. End of transcription

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