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Stop Overthinking in 90 Seconds with the “Brain Huddle” Trick | Episode 445

 

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Episode Summary

Victoria Ichizli-Bartels, author of fourteen books on gameful living and coiner of the term “self-gamification,” explores how the role of the tabletop RPG game master maps onto the inner conversation we have with ourselves. She walks through Jill Bolte Taylor’s “brain huddle” concept (a 90-second pause that resolves inner conflict by letting the 12 different players in our heads come to the table), three diagnostic questions for stressful moments (“what is happening inside myself,” “who is talking,” and “what is the goal of this person”), and a Justin Alexander hack borrowed from RPG handbooks: instead of treating a stressful thought as a crisis, respond with “yes, this can happen, now what do you do?” Listeners come away with practical reframes for daily self-management and a clearer way to spot which inner player is driving a given thought.

About the Host

Rob Alvarez is Head of Engagement Strategy, Europe at The Octalysis Group (TOG), a leading gamification and behavioral design consultancy. A globally recognized gamification strategist and TEDx speaker, he founded and hosts Professor Game, the #1 gamification podcast, and has interviewed hundreds of global experts. He designs evidence-based engagement systems that drive motivation, loyalty, and results, and teaches LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® and gamification at top institutions including IE Business School, EFMD, and EBS University across Europe, the Americas, and Asia.

Key Takeaways

  • Jill Bolte Taylor’s “brain huddle” concept proposes that 90 seconds of pause is enough to resolve inner conflict, by letting the different characters in our heads (which Victoria counts as roughly 12 distinct players, including self-leader, self-coach, game designer, and game master) come together and find an appropriate response.
  • The single most useful diagnostic question for a stressful moment is “what is happening inside myself,” followed by “who is talking” and “what is the goal of this person” — the third one usually reveals that the inner voice is trying to protect or train you, not sabotage you.
  • Justin Alexander’s RPG game master hack, “yes, this can happen, now what do you do?”, reframes intrusive or stressful thoughts (like “I want to quit my job”) from a crisis into an exploration, which usually reveals you don’t want the extreme outcome — you want a smaller change.
  • RPG handbook rules (“respect your co-players, be patient, be curious, be open-minded”) map directly onto self-talk. Open-mindedness toward your own impulses is the rule most people break without noticing.
  • Victoria connects RPG engagement to Core Drive 7 (Unpredictability and Curiosity): players love active play and surprise inside games but resent it in life, even though the underlying motivator is identical. Recognizing this changes how you experience unexpected events.
  • The strategic-game metaphor of map exploration (“the land becomes lighter as you pay attention”) and cool-down phases (planting crops after taking a castle) gives a concrete vocabulary for energy management between high-output and recovery days.

Topics Covered

  • 0:00 — Opening hook on RPG surprise
  • 0:25 — Welcome and guest reintroduction
  • 1:51 — 14 books in and still surprised
  • 4:06 — Writing about TTRPGs without playing them
  • 6:47 — The game master inside your head
  • 9:48 — Why RPGs are collaborative storytelling
  • 12:22 — Is there a map of the mind
  • 16:47 — Rules of the inner RPG
  • 18:29 — The 12 players inside us
  • 19:05 — The 90-second brain huddle
  • 23:30 — Self-care hacks from RPG handbooks
  • 25:37 — The yes-this-can-happen reframe
  • 26:56 — Closing thoughts and what is next

Get the free Core Drives in the Wild guide, behavioral design applied to real products: professorgame.com/WildCD

About Victoria Ichizli-Bartels

Victoria Ichizli-Bartels is a writer, coach, and consultant with a background in semiconductor physics, electronic engineering (Ph.D.), information technology, and business development. While not a traditional gamer, Victoria coined the term “self-gamification,” a gameful, playful approach to self-care and self-help that combines anthropology, kaizen, and gamification to enhance quality of life. With over a decade of experience living gamefully, she is the author of fourteen books and the instructor of two online courses on turning life into fun games. Victoria grew up in Moldova, lived in Germany for twelve years, and since 2008 has been based in Aalborg, Denmark, with her husband and two children.

Find the Guest Online

Mentioned in This Episode

  • Be Your Best Game Master by Victoria Ichizli-Bartels (the book this conversation is built around)
  • So You Want to Be a Game Master by Justin Alexander
  • Whole Brain Living by Jill Bolte Taylor (the “brain huddle” concept and the four-characters model)
  • The 5-Minute Perseverance Game by Victoria Ichizli-Bartels (her first book, published 10 years ago)
  • Actual Real Life Role-Playing Games by Victoria Ichizli-Bartels
  • 10,000 Hours of Play by Yu-kai Chou
  • A.J. Jacobs and his life-as-experiment / puzzler books
  • Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) and tabletop RPGs in general
  • Story Cubes (the dice-and-pictures storytelling game)
  • Core Drive 7 — Unpredictability & Curiosity (Octalysis)

Free Resources and Get in Touch

Looking forward to reading or hearing from you,

Rob

 

Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Opening hook on RPG surprise

Victoria (00:00): main reason for the engagement I discovered, it was that they don’t know what will happen. And in life, we resent it. In RPG, people like the surprise effect. We like it in real life as well. That’s Core Drive 7 unpredictability and curiosity. We say we don’t like it.

Welcome and guest reintroduction

Rob Alvarez (00:25): Hey Engagers and welcome to Professor Game, the number one gamification podcast where we explore how games, gamification and game thinking help us boost engagement, multiply retention and build stronger products. I’m Rob, I’m the founder and coach of Professor Game and I’m also the head of engagement strategy in Europe in the Octalysis Group, leading gamification consultancy and professor of gamification and game-based solutions at top global institutions, including IE Business School, EFMD, EBS University and so many others around the world. And before we dive into today’s conversation, remember if you’re struggling with retention, with churn, engagement with your product, service or business, want to turn that around, look at our Core Drives in the Wild free guide. can just click on the link in the description and you will get it right on your inbox. And without further ado, Victoria, welcome to the podcast. Happy to have you back. Once again, are you prepared to engage?

Victoria Ichizli-Bartels (01:16): Yes, definitely. Thank you for having me, Rob, and I’m glad to be here and to explore what we will discover.

Rob Alvarez (01:24): Absolutely, absolutely lovely to have you back as you might know from the previous episode and if you don’t know about it just look at the description and can click there and listen to that episode. Victoria has written multiple books on playful, gameful, living and other experiences that she has had and she’s been discussing and right now we’re going to be discussing one of her latest books. um But I also and of course if you want to see her bio and everything all that is is right there.

14 books in and still surprised

Rob Alvarez (01:51): But I wanted to start with asking precisely about, you know, have the number, yeah, 14 books living gamefully. You’ve explored so many different angles, so extensively. What keeps you sort of coming back in and, you know, what is it in this intersection of life and games that still surprises you?

Victoria Ichizli-Bartels (02:15): Actually, when I published the first book, 10 years ago actually, it was exactly 10 years ago, the 5-Minute Perseverance Game, I didn’t know about gamification and I thought that would be it. eh It works for me and it’s wonderful, but then I discovered gamification and I also again wrote a couple of books and I thought that’s it. But it wasn’t. I kept discovering and again, more and more. And it’s not only parallels or theory. There have been many books and many articles and saying about game theory, about parallels, about m drawing the parallels about life and games, but discovering, actually diving into different genre or into different aspects of games. There is so much depth and multidimensionality and also there is so much closeness to game, but there is also difference to how we behave inside games and outside of games. So that became very interesting and exciting for me to explore and a game in itself.

Rob Alvarez (03:17): Interesting interesting love love that whole the whole perspective and and something we were starting to discuss especially at the start given The the new book, you know be your best game master which caters for tabletop RPGs I’ve mentioned more times that I’m proud to say because I always say, know, I’m getting closer and now I’m going to play my next TTRPG right now is not a good season Being young daughter is definitely not the best moment for that because that means probably, you know, doing kind of things at night or whatever. Like it’s not, I’m very busy as well professionally. But anyways, I also, I am, uh, I don’t want to say guilty because it sounds negative, but I’m, I’m also, you know, part of the team that still hasn’t experienced TTRPGs myself. And from what we’ve discussed, it seems like you’re part of that team as well. So

Writing about TTRPGs without playing them

Rob Alvarez (04:06): How did you go about not being a person who’s experienced TTRPGs or tabletop role-playing games yourself to writing a book about how to use that for something else, being your own game master in this occasion?

Victoria Ichizli-Bartels (04:22): Yes, yes, uh it was uh also surprising to me, although I wrote a book a couple of years ago called actual real life role playing games saying that everything in life is a role playing game. And I have uh role playing game gamers in my life, so my family also in my husband’s family. And but actually no one inside our family or um actually not no one, but no one of the adults plays role-playing games. But my son engaged in D&D in Dungeons and Dragons and he enjoyed it very much. m And he loves how it took place and everything. And it’s in the youth club that they are playing. So they have an adult game master there. But he also played it with three, with two other… uh friends of his and he actually, they made a variation of D&D and played with different things. And one of them was game master, the others were gamers and they were developing worlds for each other. So there was a lot happening and very interesting engaging to listen to and to discover together with him. Although I wasn’t playing myself. So this is how something ignited and something kind of was in the back of my head. when I started exploring, was thinking about different ways or different roles we play when we relate to ourselves, with ourselves. So we are teachers, we are leaders, we are therapists, we are also, if we take the other side, are bratty children, we are someone who resists, we are patients, we are trainees, so we have all these roles. with each other. So I started thinking about role playing games and especially this strange, strange role, you could say game master, which is kind of not quite a player, but also participates in the gameplay. So I was curious about it. So this is how it started. at the end, at the beginning, the book was supposed to be called something like self leadership, self parenting, self and so on. but it turned out to be something completely different. Yes. Interesting, interesting.

The game master inside your head

Rob Alvarez (06:47): One of the things that I’ve noticed is you talk about how this sort of relates to yourself and, you know, be your best game master is that relationship you have with yourself and how perhaps even that you’ve been exploring, you’ve talked about how the game master role in itself, it has been so crucial. So the question is, and given, you know, I haven’t read your book, full disclosure, when you talk about be your best game master, I’m guessing that it has to be how to become that game master for yourself. How does that happen? How does that relate to ourselves? you unpack that a little bit more? What does it mean to be the game master in your life?

Victoria Ichizli-Bartels (07:26): Yes, I was so curious about this role and role in general. So I started researching and I found a couple of books and then I selected one to start with. And it was by Justin Alexander, So You Want to Be a Game Master. And uh it had very good feedback and um it has also suggestions for the Game Masters with maps and so on for D&D and for other games. So I started reading it and I was immediately blown away because it was the first sentence was saying an RPG is a conversation. And this is what I realized what’s happening inside my head. I have constantly a conversation. And later when I researched and actually thought I shouldn’t, I couldn’t be the first one saying that. And then I found a book. I haven’t read it yet, but I read reviews about it called Self-Isolation. illusion is when when we think that we are just one person and we have a monologue. We don’t have a monologue. It’s a constant conversation as we relate to to the world around us. So I was thinking what’s happening. So I started researching also different books and I read a book by Jill Bolte Taylor who is a neuroscientist and her book is called the whole, her second New York Times bestselling book is called the whole brain living. So she talks about four characters in our heads, like with the left and right brain halves, and then we have the forward and the backward parts of it. So we have four characters inside us. And she described them, she even named them for herself and she described all the behaviors they have. So that was kind of an igniting point to see that there are so many people actually who talk about it. Why not learning from RPGs and from, you know, game masters? So I was very curious about this role because game masters are those who start the storytelling in a round of an RPG, but also they are referee. And most of the RPGs, especially tabletop RPGs. are a collaborative storytelling game.

Why RPGs are collaborative storytelling

Victoria Ichizli-Bartels (09:48): So there are not so many competitive games, but even in competitive, the players have to agree to certain rules. So that was really like, okay, it’s collaborative game. This is why people actually enjoy it. All players who play RPG, they really enjoy it. Maybe for some people it’s not, but who engage again and again, it’s really interesting. uh The main reason for the engagement I discovered was that they didn’t know what would happen. It so-called active play. And in life we resented it. So I was really interested. Oh, okay, in games, in RPGs, people like this surprise effect. We like it in real life as well. That’s Core Drive 7 unpredictability and curiosity. We say we don’t like it. We say we don’t like it. We say we don’t like it. Yeah, I used to play. I don’t know if you know this game. It’s story cubes. We have all sets at home. They are just cubes with different pictures on them. And so you have different sets like adventure and so on. So different cute pictures, maybe a magic wand or an explosion or a skull or whatever. So there are many, many different pictures. and you roll this dice and then you tell your story. But my children and I, used to play, and that actually was my son’s idea who plays D&D, but before he played D&D, is to roll a dice, but not tell your whole story, but just say one sentence. So you say one sentence and the other person say another sentence in the story and so on. So you never knew how the story unfolds. And that was so wonderful and so, so fun and crazy how the stories. And this is what happens with life. It’s always surprising, always, like you said, the seventh core drive, always this unexpected ideas, although we resist or we think we don’t want them, but we need somehow to react. So, and there are all these conversations. So I was really, really glad to discover that there is… a part of me and it is there. I just needed to recognize it. That helps to bring all those other players together. And this is the game master. Very, very, very cool indeed.

Is there a map of the mind

Rob Alvarez (12:22): One of the things, again, I’m not an expert in TTRPGs at all because I haven’t played them, but I’ve heard about them. I’ve talked to people who know a lot about them and I’ve read a little bit about them. There’s also usually something along the lines of a map or somewhere where physically players are, quote unquote, moving around. If do you apply this to the inner RPG, you know, is there a map of the mind? Um, is it, is it useful in, in daily life? I don’t know. Like, is that something that you explore as well? How does it work?

Victoria Ichizli-Bartels (12:59): Yes, yes, I did explore it. I actually with the book, I was really glad that um I had a game master, very experienced game master, four different game RPGs reading my book. He read it as a better reader and he provided actually excerpts from different, I couldn’t buy all the handbooks and rule books, uh you know, of all the games, but he actually sent me excerpts of them and I quoted them in the book that was so… So enlightening also to, it sounded like self-help books, know, those rule books. And we talked and I also kind of had my ideas about the maps and he also gave me feedback and it was interesting. It’s not, so in RPGs usually, yeah, they have tools online and also they can draw or as in book by Justin Alexander, even suggested a couple of maps that you can use. It’s in life, it’s a little bit different. Although we do, we prepare some maps like our to-do lists for our daily. So we do create or prepare some kind of maps. We have an idea what we want to do the next day. We know about our appointments. So we have this basic map. But our maps inside our minds are also, I imagine them like those in the strategic games. where you start with a small, my husband plays some of those, when you kind of start discovering your land and then everything is dark, just one small piece and you explore it, you build your castle and so on, then you go take your troops somewhere to discover more and then your map becomes a bit lighter and lighter, you see more as when you kind of… spend time in exploring something you see, you understand more. And then again, when you draw your attention to something else, then you see in this area more and becomes lighter, lighter and that your land expends. This is how I think of our mind games, of our experiences that we kind of, we have unknown territory and when we pay attention and give it time to explore, then we make an experience. But we also need those cool down. phases when you know you don’t, if you, if you, for example, took over a castle, then you are not allowed to, you know, to send your troops to fight anymore. You have to, em to plant crops and actually to take care of your land. And I noticed I have it just recently. I told it to my husband. I had like one day was so active, exciting. uh and I managed so many things and I called them quests and everything. And next day was like completely down. And suddenly I had this thought, it’s my cool down phase. I just need to stop fighting and just relax and to plant the crops and take care of what I already have. And that was kind of, it’s really interesting how, you know, all these words, all this. eh all this vocabulary that games use, RPGs or uh either TTRPGs, but also the other role-playing games or strategic games, it’s so helpful to use them. It’s so amazingly rewarding and it actually helps in reframing. So that was a big discovery for me. Makes sense.

Rob Alvarez (16:41): And with like any game, right? There’s always rules to the game.

Rules of the inner RPG

Rob Alvarez (16:47): also even, I’m guessing, again, I’m assuming from TTRPGs, it’s a human interaction. So conflicts can arise and there has to be something to rule them beyond the usual social interactions because you’re inserting yourself into a new world. um Is there some language that you use for this when using this Game Master? ah sort of thought in your inner talk as you were describing before. Is there any specific voice, uh players, like you mentioned before the four players in the brain. I don’t know. I’d like to explore that a little bit more, especially when it comes to conflict. Like, I want to do this, but I also want to do that. I can’t do both things at the same time. How does the game master maybe help you there?

Victoria Ichizli-Bartels (17:32): Yes, that’s a great question. Actually, em there are rules and when I read those excerpts on those parts of handbooks and I saw that it’s actually they pay as they say you play all together respect your co players. Be patient, be curious, open minded, open minded is actually on the all on all games and all handbooks I have found. And that’s what we are sometimes not in our brains. We are not open-minded to some ideas that we have, either to other people, but also others. We have an impulse and I think, no, no, no, I shouldn’t do that. So those kind of rules directly like from handbooks, em but also I realized I was, em the language must be very kind. that we use, but I want to come a little bit first, what you also mentioned about many, many roles, like four players.

The 12 players inside us

Victoria Ichizli-Bartels (18:29): Actually, I discovered for myself, are like 12 players. Yeah, like self-leaders, self-coach and so on. So a game designer is one of them. Game master is also a role. But I realized that sometimes I cannot name them. So it’s more about discovering them. So the game master or also the other players inside me need to discover each other. Who is talking? And here I come back to the language. I realized that I need a couple of questions to put myself and to ask myself.

The 90-second brain huddle

Victoria Ichizli-Bartels (19:05): actually Jill Bolte Taylor in her book, she calls this kind of phase where all players are together, she calls it brain huddle. You know, the huddle in like… team games when they all come together, you know, in a circle and talk together, it’s called huddle. So she says, bring all your players into a huddle so they can find um an appropriate response to the world outside you. And she says 90 seconds is enough for this brain huddle. You know, when you are confused, when you are conflicted inside yourself, give yourself 90 seconds, you find a solution. And I realized that sometimes maybe it can be even shorter if you ask yourself a couple of questions. And the first one, which I really resisted writing, I actually didn’t put it as number one, I put it somewhere else, but it’s actually the first question. then later I rephrased it. It was really interesting how I resisted to put this question. And this is what is happening inside myself. This is the very first question when we are conflicted. When we are not conflicted, we just play our games and we are in the flow, so no problem. But when we have this problem, when we challenged, when we are stressed, what is happening inside myself is the first question to put. And then the second one is who is talking? And this is really interesting because for example, I noticed sometimes I rehearse, um you know, like it happened to many people. You sit in a group of people. and everyone introduce themselves. And almost everyone would be rehearsing inside, rehearsing what they want to say instead of listening to other people. And it’s because we are afraid that we will say something wrong, that we will look wrong and so on. So asking ourselves, what is happening? I am afraid, who is talking? It can be someone who is afraid of something or it might be a teacher who wants to teach me something. And so, but, when I answer this question for myself, then I, then suddenly a bulb comes. Oh, okay. So what is then the next person question would be, what is the goal of this person? Who, what, what is this person who doesn’t want to do? And it’s often like to protect me of something or to train me to, for the future conflict or something else. And then there comes better understanding of ourselves. That’s where this, That’s why this language, this rules uh of being kind when we talk to ourselves really helps us find an answer actually we didn’t see before. And that’s been really, really enlightening for me and helpful for myself as well.

Rob Alvarez (22:00): Very, very interesting. the, questions and the 90 seconds, I think I’ve always seen and, and, and believed as well that you know, you there’s this, I think it’s called Murphy’s law that you, task is going to extend as long as you into as much time as you give it, you give it 90 days, it’s going to take 90 days. You give it 10 seconds, it’s going to take 10 seconds. Within reason. Don’t get me wrong. know, I know sometimes it’s exaggerate. But in general, there is a tendency to fill the time that we have left with other tasks or reviews or more reflection or wasting time in general. I actually, have someone, I know someone who said a very interesting thing that goes into what you just said. He said, I need three hours to complete a task. One to make the, to do actual work for the task and two hours to complain about it. And I think this is so true. Yeah. When you just have to do it, have half an hour instead of an hour, then you just do it in half an hour. You have no time to complain. I’ve even heard myself saying, I have no time to complain. I just have to do this. Right. In my head or actually saying it. Yeah.

Victoria Ichizli-Bartels (23:10): Yes, yes. But actually the complaints can be so interesting and so versatile. For example, sometimes just this, you know, this, that’s already the complaint. And then we are so creative in complaining. That’s just amazing.

Rob Alvarez (23:28): Absolutely. Absolutely.

Self-care hacks from RPG handbooks

Rob Alvarez (23:30): with, with all these things, and maybe it has to do with the 90-second thing that you mentioned or something entirely different. Is there some sort of life hacks that you can, you can, you can drop here? any, any, or more than life hacks, maybe it’s more about self care hacks, right? People love to, I say life hacks because people love to hear, life hack. is a life hack. Self care hacks are life hacks in general. I think it’s more accurate to call them self care hacks, but, I don’t know, are there any of you, from the writing of this book, from your experience, is there anything in this game master role that you would leave the Engagers with?

Victoria Ichizli-Bartels (24:04): Yes, again, I’m reading the books about RPGs and um also the handbooks. They were so enlightening. And I took a couple of life hacks or self-care hacks from there. And uh one of them is absolutely this active play thing is that so characteristic to RPGs that uh it is actually exciting to remind myself. It is exciting, this unexpectedness. of life is something that can be explored, that can be looked with curious eyes. So this one of them. But another was especially for Game Master, and it was by Justin Alexander in his book. He said that Game Masters sometimes feel a bit overwhelmed and think that the players actually await from them or expect from them to… know all the answers. the player makes their move, say, okay, I opened that door in the castle or whatever. Or I try to take this booster or take this object and figure out how it works. And Game Master might not have planned for that move or for that to happen. So sometimes Game Masters can be feeling overwhelmed. Interestingly, he says in his book that you don’t have to have all the answers or to be uh stressed.

The yes-this-can-happen reframe

Victoria Ichizli-Bartels (25:37): But actually, he said there is a very nice hack for it. Tell your player, yes, this can happen. So now what do you do if this happens? So that was really interesting. eh And then I realized I can do it in my head as well. For example, if… uh If in my head I have some stressful thought, I don’t want to do this anymore. And I want to, you know, for example, quit my job and everything. And then, and then I’m, you know, surprised and shocked that I have this thought and really do I want to do? And then becomes, you know, this stressful moment. And I’m thinking, well, I actually can do this. Take this hack and think to my, to this play in my head, say, okay, this can happen. What do you do that? And when you look and when you start thinking past this, I want to quit the job. Okay, what do I do if I quit this job? Then something happening, know, maybe I don’t quite want to quit this job, but I want maybe to change something. So what can I do? So this was a really one of my favorite hacks that I found. saying, yes, this happens. What do you do then? to your, to your,

Rob Alvarez (26:54): Interesting, it. Love it.

Closing thoughts and what is next

Rob Alvarez (26:56): Victoria, thank you as always for all your insights and everything you bring to this world. Not the fewest of them writing 14 books on playful and gameful living for sure. Is there anything else you would like to say before we say it’s game over for now?

Victoria Ichizli-Bartels (27:14): I’m discovering further. I’m writing more books. So right now I’m writing game full journaling. I discovered that my little book, the way I record all the things, it’s actually journaling. So I’m exploring that and also writing collection of my real life role playing games, not role, just real life games or reality games as I call them. It’s just, um I think it’s, uh what I want to say is that never stop being playful and gameful because actually everything in life is a game because it has the same core components as anything in game and we forget it and if we are aware that everything is gameful and playful then we can actually adjust it because we are designers and developers of our own life so we can adjust it. our best game masters, can start the storytelling, discovering how the other players in our heads and also outside of our heads can contribute to our game. So it’s wonderful and I will never, I don’t think I will ever stop it because it’s so exciting and so fun and reading so many books by, there are many books appearing which go into this direction. Yu-kai Chou has recently released his 10,000 Hours of Play. then there are many others with gameful perspective on job searching and so on. There are so many, so many inspiring and also books that, for example, by A.J. Jacobs about living his life as an experiment or being a puzzler. So it’s just amazing. And it’s also inside the games, game designing books are interesting, but also there are many other people who go into this direction. it’s fun to discover other life gamers.

Rob Alvarez (29:10): Amazing, amazing. Thanks again for sharing, Victoria. Always exciting to have you around.

Victoria Ichizli-Bartels (29:16): However, thank you.

Rob Alvarez (29:17): Agers, as we always like to say before we say it’s game over, that if you want not only to turn your own life into a game, but maybe you’re experiencing also this in your job. This could be also in your professional life, in your company, if you’re listening in or you’re maybe a product manager, an innovation manager, and you want to use these strategies in your business, make sure you go on and grab our free guide. Core Drives in the Wild, which you can find a link in the description. And without further ado, Engagers, Victoria, and everybody listening, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. And thank you once again, Engagers, for hanging around after this interview. And as I mentioned at the start, if you are interested in looking at our guide of the Core Drives in the Wild, especially for corporate and business settings, now as a consultant in the Octalysis Group I have, access to some significant and interesting data and I can talk a lot more about the way we see things through the Octalysis framework, just go to the link below, click there and we will send you an email sequence with all of these cases, core drives one by one analyzing different situations and giving our strategic advice. So, Engagers, thanks again for staying around and I’ll talk to you and see you soon.

End of transcription